Socialism: The Worst Combination of Smart People and Stupid People | Sasha Gong

[00:00:14] Welcome to The Jenny Beth Show. Today we have joining us a survivor of communism who prefers not to think of herself as a survivor but thriving, Sasha Gong, who is from China originally, is an American citizen and has had quite an amazing life. Sasha, thank you so much for joining me today.

[00:00:36] Sasha Gong, The Jenny Beth Show, The Jenny Beth Show, The Jenny Beth Show, The Jenny Beth Show, The Jenny Beth Show. I'm old enough not to, you know, not to care about reviewing my age. I'm 70. Don't look that. I'm very proud of it. You should be proud of it and you don't look 70. And you're quite energetic and sharp as a tack. I was born in 1956.

[00:01:06] Communist Party took over in 1949, so I was born right in the beginning of communism. And I was born in Beijing and raised in Canton. My parents, my parents were college professors. And I have a grandfather. I have two grandfathers, one grandfather, my mother's side.

[00:01:35] His father and my grandmother's father were both railway workers in the U.S. So they came, they're Cantonese, they're from Toisan. So in that time, you know, if you go to China, when I came to the States, to Chinatown, everybody was speaking Toisanese. That's a dialect. My grandma's speaking so I can speak some.

[00:02:00] I realized they're all from four counties there, from, you know, my mother's hometown. Wow. So that's my American root. And I went, I ran for the Virginia House once. I always say, hey, fourth generation American. That's funny. Yeah. So they came back and later they sent my grandfather back to the States. And so he was an American citizen.

[00:02:29] And he studied at Columbia. A very prominent lawyer, went back to China. And anyway, well, part of history I found out online, he was actually also a very big name judge. Since he is also archaeologist, famous archaeologist and a calligrapher and whatever. So the Japanese adore him.

[00:02:58] And during the Second World War, as I think he's ranked as major general secretly as a judge. So he served as the Chinese spy for the, you know, spy on the Japanese. I didn't know that. It's kind of very interesting. But his name, I tried to look for his name in Columbia log. I realized one thing.

[00:03:23] I did not know his name because he used a different name in America. Could not find out. Wow. Remember the word paper son? Yes. My suspicion was he was one of those paper sons. That's my suspicion. Only my suspicion. I have no idea.

[00:03:45] Because, you know, in China, the communists later accused him of being American spy. The title is cultural spy. How the hell you become a cultural spy, I don't know. But he spent 20 years in jail. In China? In China. Okay. And how many children did he have? I think that my grandma was his first wife. So I had three.

[00:04:15] And later, I think he had seven later. I did not know. I never met them. Okay. But your, was it your mom's dad or your dad's dad? My mom, my grandma. That's my mom's side. Okay. And so she, so that was her dad. Yes. Wow. Yeah. And at what age was he imprisoned for her?

[00:04:45] How old was she when he was in prison? Do you know? Oh, well, he was in prison in 1957. Oh. He was put in jail, you know, released in 77. He was in prison when you were born? Yes. Okay. Yes. But, you know, it's more complicated because my grandma divorced him. Okay. Divorced him not because, divorced him in the 40s, not because, you know, of all this trouble.

[00:05:14] He was very famous. My grandma divorced because he took a concubine. Story as old as time. And then what about your other grandfather? He also worked the railroads? Oh, no, no. My other grandfather's from different province. Okay. Well, he was a general.

[00:05:37] Well, he was a KMT general. And the history projected to every individual.

[00:06:08] What was your miserable story? I prefer to call that a rebalance story. Let's hear your rebalance story. Yeah. And actually, my grandfather got into a lot of political trouble. My father's father, that's...

[00:06:26] So, in 1965, he was kicked out of the city and brought all the grandchildren to his original village. So, we live in countryside. I was nine years old. And at that time, I lost school because the local schools, I did not even understand what a word, what they said. And sent to work in the field. And that's normal.

[00:06:57] But the twist is that my grandma, my paternal grandma, because of all this miserable change, went crazy. My grandpa was arrested again. So, that left. My parents were still in the city teaching. So, left four of the grandchildren with a grandma who's nuts.

[00:07:26] Wow. Well, but we have some... So, later, my grandpa sent us to live with his sister. And at that time, everybody was in trouble. My grand-aunt, in that case. It also says a lot about China. It's that beautiful woman. Famous. Locally famous. Tall and beautiful.

[00:07:57] So, he married someone who died when she was 20. She was widowed. And at that time, widows from good families are not supposed to get married again. My grandfather, at that time, was in the military. A military officer. Very young and a modern officer. Went back and forced her to remarry. Since she married someone who has a small...

[00:08:26] Not a factory. It's like a place, a small workshop making tofu then. That got into trouble later. That husband also died. But later, she was accused of being a capitalist. So, I was there in 1966. I was living with my grand-aunt in a very small place in Hunan.

[00:08:51] So, the Red Guard rushed in and hang a big sign on her. She had to weld it day and night called capitalist. Bad. Wow. Yeah. Well, we just watched that. And that time, we were really dirt poor. Not enough to eat and nothing, you know. Something like that. Later, my parents brought us back to the cities.

[00:09:20] It was 1967. China was in civil war, in a way. Because Mao's fashions... Well, everybody claims they support Mao. But they have different fashions. Some fashions are supported by the military. So, you actually just see war all the time.

[00:09:45] Students, young students were fighting with machine guns. You know, the city I was in, in Canton. The worst thing is that, in that time, China was shipping a lot of weapons to Vietnam. So, those weapons got hijacked and used in local fight. That's how we grow up. Very brutal.

[00:10:13] And, of course, no school. All schools were closed. You can't go to school. So, later, in 1968, my parents, like all other teachers, were sent to labor camps. Or, in that time, private prison. Every school set up its own prison to put all the teachers in. So, once... You know, it's very hard for kids. Let me tell you what.

[00:10:43] Once... That's... I remember vividly. 1968, I was 12. So, my father had high blood pressure, we all know. And we didn't have enough food. So, we saved some meat. And I cooked meat soup for my father. So, I sent it to his camp. And I was... The guards were students.

[00:11:11] Telling them, said, hey, I want to give it to my father. He said, what? Do you have? I said, it's a meat soup. He said, oh, this capitalist. So, I said, no. We saved it. We have the... So, I started arguing. My father came out and saw me arguing with the guards and slapped me on the face so hard. Because that would got him in trouble. So, I said, okay. Never. Again. I would never send anything to you again. Anyway.

[00:11:41] So, that's... 68. Very soon, 69. Because, you know, Mao sent the military to control. Said, okay. This is out of control. And then, again, we were sent to countryside with other young people. So, I went to countryside and lived there. A few years later... Well, anyway. I cut the story short. A few years later, I was sent back.

[00:12:09] And when I was 16, I was given a job in a small factory producing candy. So, I fixed machines, produced candy, and stuff like that. That basically summarized my childhood. And when you were small, when you were nine and you were in the countryside to begin with, you had to pick peppers. Is that right? Oh, did everything. Not pick... Only pick pepper and plant rice.

[00:12:36] The difficult thing is to plant rice because you have to, you know, standing in... But everybody does that. When everybody does that, you don't feel it's a punishment. But you... Right. Because you didn't know anything different. The farm work. But looking back and looking at the way Americans treat children, it must seem like it wasn't the way children... And you were taken from your parents. You weren't around your parents.

[00:13:06] That's the part. But I wasn't that unhappy taking away from my parents because my mother, especially such a party activist, control us so tightly. In a way, I have to be honest with you. I wasn't happy... I wasn't unhappy of picking peppers and doing all the farm work because I didn't need to go to school, which I hated. I hated it.

[00:13:36] Yeah. Yeah. Don't get me wrong. I love reading. I read whatever I could get. I just think school is boring. Forrest... I got criticized in school all the time because I could not sit straight. I always have to do something. My hand and something. And I understand it in five minutes. And why the hell do I need to stay? Well, you're very smart. I can tell that you have a very high IQ.

[00:14:04] So you probably were bored out of your mind and they weren't challenging you enough. Yeah. I was thinking of something else always. Here's the problem. I think Americans teach their kids. You have to guard your kids so tight. Let kids be kids. Let them play. Hey, and not long ago, you know, Virginian mom was arrested. Yes. For letting him walk in a gated community.

[00:14:33] Hey, I walk to school every day. I think what's wrong with that? Let kids be kids. And kids will be happier that way. I have to be honest with you, with all this, when people say, oh, how miserable. I didn't feel that. But I think that's important also to understand that you were going through something that by our judgment today, we would say, wow, that is very harsh. But in the middle of it, that's not what you were thinking.

[00:15:03] And the historical, that's also, you know, kids like that, you raise your younger brother, siblings, and you do this, you know, like say one thing I got the skills. I'm very good in making clothing. Why? Because when my parents went to labor camp, we have no money. And what my brothers, one is two years younger, one six years younger, they have to wear new clothing. I have no clothing,

[00:15:32] so I have to cut my father's and other whatever piece of cloth and put them together and make clothing for my brother. My brother came home and cried. Oh, so look at, they said I'm wearing women's clothes because it's, you know, it's different pieces. So I have no choice but to dye everything blue. Oh, wow. Navy blue. And so one color, no complaint.

[00:16:02] So anyway, that's, you talk about, you know, this is one thing I can't stand because lots of books and, oh, it's such a harsh life, we are so miserable. No, we are human beings. We manage to strive in any difficult situation. That's what I prefer. I do that. Which is why you don't want to be thought of as a survivor, but more thriving

[00:16:32] and just living life and making the most of everything. You'll have more fun when you overcome it. Yes, you do. It's true. So when you were young, you mentioned having to make your brother's clothes, out of clothes from your parents. What kind of things were there? You're in the middle of the, you're born, as communism has taken root in China,

[00:17:00] what was the food like? What were, was clothing like? What was toys or things, material things? Well, material things, actually toys first. We may have the feel when I was very young and then, then you have persecution and you'll see people got killed and you have this. well, you see people get killed. Toys is the last thing you think. Like my neighbor,

[00:17:30] one of my neighbor, drag out and criticized. One day, just jump out of the window. My brother was watching this. Oh, gosh. And you see people being persecuted and you just, you just think that's part of your life, part of normal life. And the good thing is that I always appreciate that I have no chance to go to school because I don't need to justify it by whatever official line

[00:18:00] I can go with, you know, whatever I see is true. You see, for communism, the most successful part of any dictatorship and including the leftists in our country, the part is they separate, they separate truths with, they separate, well, how, how can I put it? They, they separate truth from truth. You see, whatever truth,

[00:18:30] whatever you see, whatever you feel is true, you know it's true. But what is truth? They twisted truth and tell you, say, what, the situation is miserable, I'm hungry. But it's true, but it's not truth. The truth is the official line. Communist Party created abandon, abundance for a country and is so, we are so happy.

[00:18:59] That's the so-called truth. Like today, even, they said, man can be woman. That's not true, but that's the truth according to them. Right. So, you think of that, it's, I always, I'm from very young age, I'm always amazed by that sort of separation and I rejected. I remember the first time I rejected it when I was 12.

[00:19:29] In that time, we had no books and I just read what, I developed one habit which was very useful for me later. I memorized whatever I have to read because later I will not, I would not have that book. So I put everything, you know, I try and it became a habit. That's why you see, oh, this year, what happened? Who said this? That's a habit. You can rattle it off like the internet. Yeah,

[00:19:57] because I have storage inside of me. Right. When I'm forced to work in the field and do something I really don't like, I really hate, I can use that storage. Right. That's how I educate myself. Anyway, so in that time, you know, when things got so chaotic in 1968, my parents were in labor camp. In that time, you know,

[00:20:27] many houses were ransacked. I lived in a college campus that when houses were ransacked, books got circled around. And one day, I got my hand to a small book. I still vividly remember that book. Blue Cover with Black Title is one title. That's one day in the life of Ivan Genesovich. Oh, wow, you got that book. I got that book. And under that set,

[00:20:57] this is for criticism. Internally circulated book. Oh, so it wasn't really, it was contraband almost. Yeah, but for the communist cadres to read. So, I read that book. You know, the funny things that I so vividly remember. Explain what the book is to people who haven't read it. Oh, that's so, Jin Jin's

[00:21:26] first book and only book published in the Soviet Union. It's a short book. It explains someone, a soldier, was captured by the Germans, POW, and released, then came back to the Soviet Union, sentenced to 10 years as a traitor, and sent to the labor camp. That was, the book is about one normal day in his labor camp life. Yeah. That time, I read the book first. You see,

[00:21:56] I may have a very different impression of Americans. At that time, my mom, my parents were in labor camp, and my mom's sister, my aunt, who was a military doctor, she criticized Mao's wife and to her best friend, and the best friend reported her she was sentenced to 13 years in jail. That's why your mom wound up in jail? My mom's sister. Mom's sister,

[00:22:25] okay. Who I really love, I know very well. Anyway, and I saw so many people went to jail, my both grandfathers and this, so that was part of normal life, and that's the most horrible thing happened under totalitarianism is everything horrible is normal. So I read that book the first time, said, well, so? Not much, because I think the life is better than ours.

[00:22:56] We're talking about material life. It has more meat. It has something which we don't have. I did the end of that book. That's one footnote, and in the evening when those prisoners were talking, said, talk about Stalin, that he would never sympathize with something with you.

[00:23:25] I have to translate back from Chinese, and he doesn't even believe his own brothers. So that's a footnote. In the footnote, it said, this is a vicious attack against Comrade Stalin. That one moment, that was such a crucial moment in my life. Stalin was not supposed to be criticized. Nobody complained against Stalin and Mao and all these

[00:23:55] leaders. In that second, I suddenly everything connect. Every misery is connected to that system. And so, from Stalin, immediately you jumped. How about Mao? You see all the killings, you see all the misery, your life you have no control. How about that? I was 12 years old. That was from in my life, that was

[00:24:25] the most scary thing in my life. Because you know, anyone who thought a little bit like that would get shot. We know that. nobody there to think of it. So, you try to dig it out and throw it away. Swords, something, the more you dig it, the more you think of it. Right. I was so frightened. I thought I would become that one of those people who

[00:24:54] they draw a cartoon and look awful, looks, oh gosh, I just want to die. It's so frightened. It's really so frightened that I think after that moment, nothing frightened me. Not the moment, after those few years, nothing frightened me anymore. Why could you not talk about Stalin or Mao negatively? Everybody

[00:25:24] got shot. It's very simple. You know, every day you see people parade on the street. Once that was meant to scare everyone, you see that people you know, well, you're forced to go on the street. So they would parade before they shoot people, they would parade them from cars, from a truck, and those people would push down and hang a big

[00:25:54] sign on them, say, this is counter-revolutionary, this is whatever allegations. Whenever you see the name with a big red cross, that person would be shot. And it's, I'm talking, you know, it's every day. It's not like the Hollywood movies. And you answer it so casually, well, you would be shot.

[00:26:24] And I kind of laughed as you said that because it's such a matter-of-fact thing, but it was matter-of-fact because that's what every single day was like. Because it is. I've read other books from people who have survived communism in some way, and they've talked about this, the death that they saw, there would just be bodies. And they didn't even think anything of it. Like, it was just part of the scenery almost, just sort of blended in the

[00:26:54] background because it was so much a part of everyday life. But sometimes it's frightened. The one scene frightened me so much. One day I saw the parade. it looked like a young student with white shirt glasses and looked like in his perhaps early twenties. There's a name, very big cross there, but in front of him, that name is blood. And apparently his tongue

[00:27:23] was cut. That's also a common practice. They cut your tongue to prevent you from screaming something. And that I remember all my life, the blood with a young student there. And well, when it was countryside, every ten days there was

[00:27:54] a bazaar and they killed people right there, you know, in the river bank. So we are all asked to watch, just watch people got shot. And they needed you to watch it so that you would comply. It means an exhibition. Right. And but I have seen so much that when I connect that thought

[00:28:23] in that time, at that moment, I was just so frightened. What's amazing about this is you were frightened of a thought that you weren't even saying out loud, were you? No, no, no. But I was so frightened by myself. Yeah. I may say it loud, and I became quiet. You see, my talk now wasn't like this. Well, I'm glad that you

[00:28:53] are able to now, but it's terrible that you were not then. A minute ago, you said one person, was it your mother who had to have the sign that said capitalist? Oh, my grand-aunt. Your great-aunt. Did you know what capitalist was? Or what did you think it was? People with money. Okay. And who are bad, who doesn't work. That's all the school taught. That's kind of what the schools

[00:29:23] teach today. Yeah. So they didn't teach about free markets, of course. Nothing like that. And later I learned all this myself. Well, jumping a few years later, when I was at Harvard, a funny story, one of my reading list, I said, Friedrich Hayek wrote to Serfden. I said, well, you guys know,

[00:29:52] I hand copied the whole damn book in 1975. Why did you have to hand copy it? Because I joined the underground group, and we just collect what ever we have our hand, we hand copied and printed out. It's a semester. And I'm sure that Hayek was very influential in your life then. Very, very. It's why he's important.

[00:30:22] He's the first one who I saw, there are a few other people, but he's the one I realized there's something called freedom and free market. freedom and free market are related. And well, if you control the market, control economy, eventually you control freedom. And freedom is something I never tasted, but I desire.

[00:30:52] So he taught you about freedom? He taught about free economy. I was much older than that time, so I started thinking a lot. When do you think you thought of what freedom was? Or did you, how would you know when you're growing up in that much of a repressed society, how did you learn about freedom? Never did. I learned about rebellion. Okay.

[00:31:23] Yeah. And remember, you know, I was sent to work in a factory when I was 16. Small factory. I lost part of my finger in fixing machines and something here. Have scars to prove it. So before I was 18, one day, I worked three shifts. So after the night shift, I rode by bicycle home. And passing by, lots of people watching something on the

[00:31:53] wall said, okay, let me watch. That is a long article posted on the wall. The title of that article is on socialist democracy and the legal system. And it called, well, you use Lim Biao's name, but actually it's called the system Feudal Fascist. And it clicked. It clicked. It gosh, this is

[00:32:23] someone telling the truth. And so it has a pen name, but there's a small note next to that poster. It says, well, based on popular request, we want to print it out, handprints, and so we need paper. So I did whatever money I have, you know, there's only a small salary. I bought papers and just went to that address

[00:32:52] and gave the paper and became friends. So I became the youngest one in the dissident group with about 20, 30 people. I did, you know, I learned much about hand carving, you know, on the ball, carving articles, reading books. We call that self-teaching university. We do that. We read. You have no idea how much, whatever we read, whatever

[00:33:22] books. And, again, I memorize whatever I can. I have three ships that I do hard labor 48 hours a day, every day at work. I read from whatever I store inside your brain. Yeah. What other kind of books did you read during that time? Oh, you were reading some of the classics on liberty, right? And the day in the

[00:33:51] life is a very important book. Oh, yes. Gosh, I wish America make that textbook. I read from Plato, Aristotle, and Herodotus history, and all the Chinese ancient history, whatever you can think of, absorb everything. thing. And that's why I got a first in my province later.

[00:34:21] Well, I think I'm top 10 of the country, top 10 person, when I took the college exam. I'm sure you were. I'm happy for that. But anyway, the reading, and also car marks and angles and whatever you can read, whatever we can read, not only we read, we sit down every day, whenever and every time, every week as a group to teach each other, to say

[00:34:50] what you learn. We also read so much classics, ancient classics, and stuff like that. I fell in love with Greek tragedy. I love it. And other things, anyway. When you were reading those books and you were reading Hayek, and the you also were reading Karl Marx. Oh, yeah. Which one did you believe more? Which did you think was right? Did you know at

[00:35:20] that point that capitalism actually was better and that free markets were a good thing? We were also reading Adam Smith. Oh, my goodness. Adam Smith was, that's why, you know, yesterday I could quote Adam Smith. You were really good at that, yes, in our panel discussion. You know, because we just want to find out everything ourselves. And, well, capitalism, we decided

[00:35:51] because we know what doesn't work. Okay. It's that simple. We did not know what capitalism was. Because you hadn't experienced it at all. And reading like that was, I'm sure, risking your own life. And then you read Marx and were looking around. Were you looking around going, that doesn't work? Well, it's more complicated. But one thing we know, it's

[00:36:20] Lenin and Stalin don't work. I know the Soviet communist history inside out because I memorized the entire textbook at that time. Which day, what happened, which years, something like that. Well, you still know it all. Why don't you, you can rattle this deep off. So, in that time, remember, the textbook, you know, Stalin made, I memorized all that book. And then later, we

[00:36:50] intentionally went into different sources, which are all illegal, but to find evidence against it. Including you? Including like the Great Purge, what happened from Kirov's murder, Great Purge, collectivization, everything. The October Revolution, we just intentionally look for evidence against it. When you went to Harvard and you told them you had already copied

[00:37:20] Hayek, the entire book by hand, what did they think? Everybody was laughing because we have other students. I have my friend Mikrosh in my class and he was Victor Aubin's right-hand man in that time in the 80s. So we all have same experience. American class may say, oh gosh, life in communist country must

[00:37:50] be interesting. How to help? Because we do have interesting stories to tell. You do, but before you got, what happened between this book club and the, for lack of a better word, the dissident group that you joined and Harvard, what happened in there? How'd you get to Harvard? Harvard, but there's a story there. Well, before I get to Harvard, I have to get to jail first. Yeah. Yeah,

[00:38:20] what happened is that, well, I was talking about 74, I joined the group and we kept on and 75, there was a new leader in town and first got a few of our friends arrested and later got, you know, everybody detained and there was one. Anyway, I was thrown in, I was thrown in, let me put, it's a jail, but it's not

[00:38:49] a sentence prison because they don't do that. Why? For a prison, you can't just drag someone out and parade them around. Okay. For that place, that jail place, they just drag you around. So I was dragged around. Sort of like the capitalist sign or whatever. Yeah, they're more civilized set up, did not lay the side on me, but, you know, put me there for, well, 11 months, almost a year.

[00:39:19] So I have seven guards guarding me 24 hours. And, but in that time, gosh, life changed in China. Mao died, at least, Mao died, actually Mao died before we were put in prison. Mao died, and after that, after Mao died, they just started arrest a lot of people to prevent things happening. So we got trapped there. Anyway, so what happens that

[00:39:49] I was put there, and as I said, I have a whole team, seven people to be in charge of interrogating, investing me. I was 20 years old. You see how ridiculous that was? And, and my first, among the first section of my interrogation, they would say, did you listen to enemy radio?

[00:40:18] I have a co-worker who listened to enemy radio and got eight years in prison. Two years he was released after Mao died. Anyway, I said, of course I did. What do you listen to? Most. I said, Voice of America. That's very funny. Well, everybody does. Everybody with a mind does at that time. Of course we listened to Voice of America. So that's why later I got very thrilled when they

[00:40:47] hired me as Voice of America's China director. Sasha, you know Voice of America. But in the last few years as President Trump cleaned up Voice of America because No, not really. He tried to clean up and never succeed. Well, you can just discuss that before you do. Here's the thing. I spoke to people who had never Americans and they were like, what is Voice of

[00:41:17] America? And they never even heard of it. They didn't understand the importance of it in foreign countries. They think, oh, and even today, they're like, well, we have the internet. We don't need Voice of America. We don't need it today. We may not, but I think right now in Iran, having it be transmitted over the radio may be important because, well, they're clamping down so they can't get the internet. But whether it's important or not for Iran, it was

[00:41:49] extremely important for you. Explain what? young time. Well, because that's the source of your information. You can't believe in government lies. And, you know, the things of people that, oh, government lies. The problems that everybody knows, they lied. But you have no other source. to somebody who's 20-something years old today, who's never heard a Voice of America, maybe they

[00:42:18] saw that there was some waste going on and Trump cut it. Most of them probably didn't even hear that. Tell them what it was. What was it? And what is Voice of America? At that time, it's a government agency. At that time, it's under the State Department USIA, United States Information Agency. So they broadcast in radio, shortwave radio, and they broadcast in

[00:42:44] people who have no free flow of information. So in China, while we all have this crystal small set and shortwave radio and listen to it, it breaks up all the time, but you got a little bit information. Because in the extreme form of dictatorship, you got zero information. I mean, zero.

[00:43:14] Every line started with the title, the people steady. It's a lie. Everything is a line, so lots of people hunger for information. And I committed myself for free flow of information because, well, young kids nowadays, they never experience one hour of desire of information have known. You can find out

[00:43:43] lots. So in that time, all the foreign radios became spiritual lifelines of our life. And then you get just in case you're 20 and you don't realize this because my children, they do know what a radio is, like on the car, they know there is a radio, but since they started driving, they never listen to the radio. It's always whatever is on their phone, it's connected to the car.

[00:44:14] They haven't even really had to wait for advertisements. This was America pumping news through the radio waves across the world, especially in communist controlled countries. And the music. I learned jazz. Oh, wow. Oh, gosh, I loved it. because I know some songs and this thing, and I also grew up with lots of Russian music,

[00:44:44] love Russian music. And one of my favorites, Tchaikovsky, of course, Rimsky, Kostakov, and Rachmaninoff. Yeah, I just, you know, and later also in that time, Shostakovich, Shostakovich, some of Shostakovich pieces are so rebellious. You listen to it, oh, gosh, you know, he make

[00:45:13] Russian march music, sounds like fart. That's very interesting. We have to listen to it secretly. So, one of my favorite, another favorite radio, you laugh, but in that time is Moscow Peace and Progress Radio, because the music. And you weren't even allowed to have music? Well, the communist shitty music.

[00:45:43] But that music was probably propaganda. propaganda. It's loud, it's propaganda, it's I just hate it. Yeah. And then later, and we need to get back to how you get out of prison, but let's hold on to the Voice of America thread for just a minute. Then later you get offered, what is the title of your position at Voice of America? Director of the China Brunch?

[00:46:14] Can you imagine, like, going back and telling that little girl and that young lady who was listening to Voice of America and writing down books by hand to memorize them, that you would be in charge of the voice of freedom coming into the country? Yeah. Well, you see, my life, everything after I was 22, everything was beyond my widest stream. Everything, including sitting here, talking to you

[00:46:43] with the freedom of talking about it, is way beyond my widest stream. So I'm very happy with my life. So you were in prison for 11 months. They asked you about Voice of America or about dissident radio and you mentioned Voice of America. What happened while, or jail rather, because it wasn't prison? What happened and still tell how you got from there to Harvard? Yeah. And one detail in jail,

[00:47:13] I tried to launch a hunger strike. Later, I realized every dissident has a hunger strike because that's the only thing we refuse to eat. And I want books. They want to give me Chairman Mao's books. I said, no way. What books I negotiated with them, finally I got four volumes of the select works of Marx and Engels. Wow. You know, the most interesting part of that, the footnotes. You know, Marx and

[00:47:43] Engels, when they wrote, they used, you know, they're Westerners, they're Germans, so they used a lot of Greek mythology and whatever history. And Marx has some very brilliant work on the French 1948, no, 1848 revolution. you had a ponabot and all that. Gosh, you memorize all those by heart. And also,

[00:48:13] since you memorize everything, you have to do something. So I studied the footnote and I link all the footnote together. God, that's history. Wow. So if you ask me the French revolution, I can tell which day, what happened and which year. That's how it happened. It's not that I was studying hard. I didn't study hard in college because I studied other things. But, gosh, I do because,

[00:48:44] you know, remember Shia Shem redemption said, in prison, a man can do everything to occupy the mind. that's what I I have pens. They want me to write confession or whatever. So I write down whatever memorized and read that. They probably were not happy about that. No, no, they were very happy because my god was sharing my writing. They have no books as well. Okay. So I said, look at

[00:49:13] this, this beautiful poem. poem. So anyway, so in 1977, when Mao, after Mao died, Deng Xiaoping reopened college, and I was still in jail. So one of my god, who was one year older than I was, at that time, you know, I spent my 21st birthday there. She was 22. So she came in and said, I want to go to college, but I don't know any of this. You look

[00:49:43] smart. Can you teach me? I said, do this, shift all your shift to the night shift, because the other god would sleep. I teach you then. So she smuggled some books, some materials, and I did not go to high school, so I studied all the high school stuff. I taught her. I tried to teach her. She did not pass the exam. It was exam like hell.

[00:50:13] It's really very, you think 12 years of high school graduates all want to compete a few spots. Right. 1%. So that's real 1%. Anyway, so after Mao died, the funniest thing is that the head of my interrogation team was thrown in prison as well, because he was alleged being assisted

[00:50:43] of all these enemies and whatever. So the head of the interrogation team that put you into prison was also in prison. Mm-hmm. Anyway, so I was released, but I was denied everything. You still have your hat anti-communist there. And then come to the end of 1978,

[00:51:13] Xi Jinping's father, Xi Zhongxun, who was also freshly released from jail. All of you were in jail. And so the Communist Party at that time had a very important meeting. The Third Plenary was a session. So that set the new direction of China. And Xi Jinping's father, one of the reps,

[00:51:43] went there. So he met another official who worked on our case. So that's Chinese Premier Zhao Ziyang. Zhao Ziyang actually tried to help us. So this is very historical, but he was the one who got purged after Tiananmen Square. But at Tiananmen Square, he was the Premier. So he was in charge of our case, so gave us a lot

[00:52:13] of leeway to prevent us not being shot. Okay. That's more complicated than that. Anyway, so he went to Xi Jinping's father, Xi Zhongxun, that I heard you are going to be in charge of Guangdong province. If you go there, please release this group. So Xi Zhongxun went to Canton and just released people without any approval. And he

[00:52:42] summoned us and talked. We have like 20, a little over 20 people, a small group. He had a long table on and he was sitting across the table to me like a very short distance. And so he started to say, okay, understand what you experience. Tell me what you want. Everybody started, okay, I was in jail for this year, my salary

[00:53:12] and my and when we all complained and he stood up, broad shoulder with white shirt on and he said, he sighed, he said, oh, guys, don't complain. I was in a communist jail. He used the word communist jail for 16 years. For five years, I was in shackles and we all shut up. We're all stunned by his,

[00:53:42] you know, not 16 years in jail, not five years in shackle. We know a lot of people have that experience. But his frankness. So, and then he sat down and turned to me and said, what do you want? I said, I want to go to college. So I was 22 that time. I didn't want housing and money. It was not in my mind. So he just told his secretary next day, give her the phone

[00:54:12] number. If anyone tried to prevent her, call me. That's it. I was, you know, I was on my way to take the exam. Gosh, the exam for hell. Chinese known exam for hell, but I was prepared in jail. Right. So I took the exam. I got the first in my province. Of course you did. Yeah. In that time, that means I could pick anything I want.

[00:54:41] Any school, anything. I picked Peking University, of course. And I love history. I just, I just, you see my memorized all the years, I just love history. So I picked history department. That's how I went to Peking University history department. And for two degrees, I studied world history, I studied British Empire, studied orders, and studied English. English.

[00:55:11] My English teacher was actually American, who later came back as a foreign diplomat. She works for the state department. Anyway, so, gosh, those years, we learned so much. That's a whole new world. The whole library opened for us. Literally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, everything. So, study, had fun, and Beijing met a lot of people, and later went, well, in the

[00:55:41] mid-80s, people started, well, we have one dilemma. My ex-husband at that time, my husband and I were both from the university, and we have a huge housing shortage. We lived in other people in dorms. It's like four other people, three, five other people in one dorm. Well, married, no place to live. So, we went to the housing department and said, well, calculate when we

[00:56:11] will have enough credit to get one room. He said, calculate, when you reach 41. And that means you also have no quota of children. You have nothing. You live with other people in one dorm, girls with girls, boys with boys. So, well, perhaps in that case, people start to apply for foreign American universities. universities. That time, you have no idea how stupid we were.

[00:56:41] We have no idea there are so many universities in America. So, picking university and apply to Harvard is just natural. Harvard or maybe Yale or maybe Princeton or maybe we did not know. Right. But you knew the names of the Ivies? Oh, yeah, that's the only thing, Columbia. Yeah. That's it. So, both my ex-husband and I went to Harvard. And what, you got a PhD, what was your degree

[00:57:11] in? Sociology. The reason I want to study sociology was because sociology was banned in China. For many years, it was banned. And I read a lot of theoretical books and I think I love the classic theories. So, I said, let me try sociology because I already have two history degrees. I know how to do it. So, I went to sociology. And then how did you wind up staying in America?

[00:57:42] Did you go back to China after you came to America? It's not what I actually, the first thing, Tiananmen happened. What year did you come to America? 87. Okay. So, Tiananmen happened in 89. And of course, you know, it's just natural. I organized protests and doing this or that. she did. Yeah. It's just natural. So, 19, I think it's 1991, I had, you know, we got some

[00:58:11] foundation, money from Lu's foundation, whatever, wanted to go back to China to do some study, interviews or whatever. So, I went through Hong Kong. When I got to Canton, you know, by train, they detained me. That, well, I thought they would put me in jail again. He said, well, I said, what did I do? What did I do? You detained me. He said, you know. I said, I don't know. You know?

[00:58:41] I still don't know. The conversation is so funny. You can, you can write it in the Chaplin film. Anyway, yeah, I still don't know. So, somehow, they detained me for five hours and then throw me back to Hong Kong. So, I was barred from entering China. You know, I was holding a Chinese passport that time. Anyway, I got furious. So, I wrote a long

[00:59:11] one-page article in the Hong Kong papers and a docu, and so, I had a press conference and somebody asked, well, hey, you are not allowed to go back to China. Is that because of Tiananmen? I said, no, no, no. I was in America when Tiananmen happened. I never killed anyone. I swear that. Of course, the Chinese people, the Chinese officials, they were furious for that answer. I didn't kill anyone.

[00:59:42] Anyway, so, that's how I... Did they ever let you back in? Have you ever been back? Oh, yeah, when, after I worked for AFL-CIO, it was, I worked in some state department program. I said, if they don't allow me to go back, I scream murder in Congress. At that point, were you under an American passport when you were with the AFL-CIO? Yes. Okay. Yes. Yes. And before that, I worked for Radio Free Asia. Before that,

[01:00:12] I taught at UCLA. Did you ever go back to China as a Chinese citizen? No, I can't. All right. And, okay, then you were at UCLA. Did you see your parents again? My parents came to the States. Okay. Yeah. All right. So, and then you went to UCLA. Yeah, I didn't like it because I didn't like, I just didn't like academic environment. I love books.

[01:00:42] I love students. I love teaching. I just don't like my colleagues. Okay. No, it's not my colleagues, not a person. I just don't like the environment. Okay. Because I think that's the most unfree environment I've ever seen. You can't think this, you know, so far you know my life. I just hate for people to tell me you can't think of that. I would think of

[01:01:12] that if you tell me. So, if you want to have a future in the academic field, there's so many things you can't think. I hate it. So, I left. Okay. And what year was that? 1998. So, Eve, I'm not surprised, but just reiterating for the audience, even in 1998, there was groupthink going on on college. Oh, yeah, so much because

[01:01:41] most of them are very mediocre people. I think the worst thing is that when you have mediocre people in charge, which was basically government, and they just make mediocrity normality. America, when you were a little girl, what did you hear about America, or did you at all? Yes, that got me into a lot of trouble. Yeah, you know,

[01:02:11] my grandma, I didn't know my grandma, never came to America, my grandma raised me. So, my grandma, who later I found that was Christian, after she died, and she was describing a beautiful place for me called the Gold Mountain. Oh, if you grow up, if anyone can go to the Gold Mountain, it's the most, the luckiest thing, Gold Mountain. It's a Gold Mountain.

[01:02:41] What happened in Gold Mountain? They have very, very big oranges that I know, and they have all these houses with wood, you know, the top, the steeple, something. So, I have the impression that the Gold Mountain is like a fairy tale place. So, later in school, I think when I was second grade, I was telling friends, I said, oh,

[01:03:11] gosh, I want to go to the Gold Mountain. Somebody reported to the teacher said I was promoting America, which is, you know, the Toysunit people call America the Gold Mountain. Oh, I didn't know. They still call that the Gold Mountain. didn't know. I didn't know that, but you didn't know. I didn't know. In the Chinese, in the Cantonese slang, Gold Mountain, it's America. Okay. Because they came as, you know, 49ers, they came after digging gold.

[01:03:40] Right. Right. That's the Gold Mountain. Right. And the Gold Mountain, the word, the word, literary word, is San Francisco. Now, if you look at Chinese translation, San Francisco is translated as Old Gold Mountain. And Mervyn, I think Australia is called New Gold Mountain. Oh, okay. Because the silver and all that. Anyway, the Gold Mountain. And they simply, the Toysunish

[01:04:10] people simply say, somebody went to America, they would say, somebody went to the Gold Mountain. Got it. Gold Mountain. That was my Gold Mountain. That's the first thing that got me into trouble. But, see, that's the impression. But, even without knowing, without knowing that she was talking about America, the vision that she painted, and she'd never even been to America, but in her mind, what she was picturing, she wanted

[01:04:40] for you. The best people, the best men, always go to the Gold Mountain to make a lot of money come back. That's the house I grew up. That was my grandfather's father came back with gold and built that house. The house, it's an apartment building. We live in one of the apartments. So, one day, I remember once in Baltimore, I was walking the street somehow,

[01:05:10] said, why it looks so familiar? And suddenly realized, that looks just like the house I grew up with. Wow. Yeah. You see the flat top? If children can play on top of this? Yes. And all the stuff, just like it, it was a wow to me.

[01:05:39] So, you, when you finally got to America, what did you think? Or did you have a moment to reflect on it? America. America. Well, yes, many moments to reflect that, but I, in the 1980s, when we first came to America, I say, you see, you've, I have

[01:06:09] never seen any place more pro-America than universities in China in the 1980s. Okay. And, uh, so, got to Boston, and, oh, well, the funny thing, the third day in Boston, I read so much history of Lexington and all this. I borrowed a bicycle, had no idea what a highway looks like, but never saw a highway in my life. Right. So, I rode my bicycle

[01:06:38] and rode to a highway and to Lexington. Oh, my goodness. But you were seeing history in real life then? Yes. The things you had read about. Yes, and, uh, I was in Lexington as a historian. I was just in tears, and, because it's a history of normal people. Somebody had meetings here, somebody gathered there,

[01:07:07] they have their names on the, on the plans, and, um, something, well, I think history should be, written this way. What do you think happens if, well, before I go there, what do you think about the rise of socialism that's happening in America? Does it alarm you? What do you think

[01:07:36] of that very much? I am scared. I think socialism in America, it's, socialist communism is the worst combination of smart people and stupid people. The smart people think they can control society, control other people's lives. Stupid people think they can gain something without working for it. So, when you see the

[01:08:05] intellectuals, the smarter people combined with people who are lazy, you have communism. socialism. It's just that simple. I don't mean to be brutal, but it is. And we see this rising in America right now, and I think that what you just described is correct, because you have all these intellectual people who think that they are smart enough to be able to control

[01:08:34] everybody's lives. Some of them aren't even really smart, but they think they're smart enough to be able to do it. That's the important part. They think they're smart. Right. That's right. And they don't know much, but like Reagan said, the problems that they so much isn't so. Remember what Reagan said in I think it is 80, no, not 86, in 64. Yeah. They know the problems that our liberal friends, they know so much isn't so.

[01:09:04] That's what the school taught. And then you have these, so you have the people who know so much that isn't so. They think they know things that they don't know. Or they're just wrong about. And then you've got people who believe the lies. And I, well, I think it's lies. It's probably it's a seductive nature of the way that the left is talking about. If you just do this, we'll

[01:09:34] take care of you. So you have no need to worry about health care, no need to worry about your house, no need to worry about utilities, no need to worry about food. And so they're not smart enough to realize that it doesn't work. Smart is not even a problem. I think ordinary, people with ordinary intelligence would see it. The problems they're lazy. Anyone means that. Intellectual lazy. The laziness and intellectual and physical lazy.

[01:10:04] I pride myself, if nothing else, I'm very hard working. I just love hard working and hard thinking as well. And if you claim yourself into lecture, and the only thing you can do is to repeat propaganda or repeat whatever you read. In my, as I said, in our young time, we deliberately look evidence against what we read.

[01:10:34] And I'm still doing that, which makes me a good journalist. What is it that you think that young, young, I keep doing this and I have to correct myself because I keep going, what about the young people today? But it isn't just young people. There are people who are my age. There are people who are older than me. There are adults who are not young, but not old. And they're buying into this. They're buying into it, whether it's intellectual

[01:11:03] laziness, as you just described, or it just is a false hope that that is the way things can be better. How, what would you say to them? What would be your warning to them? Well, the false hope is no hope. When you, when you hope everything for free and you don't think further of where they get it, who produce them, it's not only intellectual laziness, it's cheating. You are

[01:11:33] cheating yourself. And my advice is very simple. Think with logic. You may like it. And our school now is teaching students not to think. And, well, my experience is, well, that's what Communist Party tried to train us, not to think. But when you start thinking, first, you can't stop it. Second, you like it. And make your life better. Otherwise,

[01:12:03] you see, all this Communist theories is based on people's anger and frustration. Yes. Lots of anger and frustration against themselves. You see, talk about I didn't have a very good materials, whatever, beginning, I did not care that much. because I think thinking and thinking hard is very, very satisfactory. It makes when I'm 70, I look back at my life.

[01:12:33] That's something I appreciate most. It's interesting that you say that as somebody who is 70. I try to challenge myself and to go and to learn more and to read. I'm constantly reading. And sometimes it's just novels because I'm dealing with too much and I just need something fun. But I read books on economics. I read books on religion.

[01:13:03] I read books on history. And I'm just constantly going back and reading more and more. I'm not memorizing it the way you do it. Because you don't need to. Well, it's true because I've got the books at home or I've got the most amazing library right here on my phone. I buy too many books. I buy a lot of books. But it's exciting to learn. It's exciting to go, oh, I didn't know that. And I can read a whole book or skim

[01:13:33] through a book and go, I know most of this, but I didn't know that part. That's a new thing for me and I need to hold on to that. And I think about as you were just talking about this, about being intellectually lazy, that you need to think and to be challenged to think, and that thinking hard is satisfactory. I couldn't help but think of and he went around challenging people to think for themselves, questioning

[01:14:02] them and urging them to start thinking it through a little bit more. And he had to do that hard thinking and memorizing himself because otherwise he would have not been able to ask the right, he wouldn't have known what questions to ask them. when I watched that young man, I saw he argued with himself all the time. And it reminded me when I was young, I do that. We still do that now, but

[01:14:31] argue with yourself, argue with the train, whatever popular there may be wrong. But 90% of the time, whatever popular there is wrong. Yeah. So, think hard. Charlie Kirk is, I met him a few times in CPAC and it's such a shame. It is. I knew him since, I met him at CPAC. I knew him since he was 19 years old.

[01:15:05] It really is a shame. It's evil and it's somebody doing exactly what, it wasn't the government. I understand it wasn't the government, but it was the same kind of thing that people around you growing up were experiencing. You weren't allowed, they wanted to silence anyone who disagreed with them. You know, in America it was the danger with all this liberal

[01:15:35] education paper. I'm afraid we are nurturing a whole generation who does not appreciate freedom. I think that we have done that already and we have to find a way to make sure that they appreciate freedom. They are too young still, even if they're 49 years old, they are too young not to appreciate freedom for the

[01:16:04] rest of their life. We can't have them voting against liberty the rest of their life. They may not always vote for the same candidate that I vote for, but they need to be voting for America's survival, not the destruction of America. Yeah. I remember I wrote an article anonymously, but you still find a publication in national interests. That was the letter I wrote to the Harvard Club and said, well, what I'm

[01:16:34] voting, why I was voting for Trump. Hillary, my concern is the First Amendment. If I elect someone who always say the right thing and then preventing me from saying the wrong thing, I'm not voting for that. I'm voting for someone who said perhaps things I don't like and the wrong thing all the time, and so I can say it as well. So First Amendment, you understand that being able to

[01:17:04] speak your mind, being able to think is so precious. It's life itself. That's why we are human beings. It's what sets us apart from all the other animals. Yeah. Yeah. That makes life great. Sasha, before we end this, is there anything else that you would want to say about liberty or about America? Did I miss asking you

[01:17:34] anything? Or anything about your childhood, even? Oh, childhood is not, well, childhood is childhood. I live that. But here today, I want to talk more about liberty, what liberty means. And in many ways, liberty, well, people would think liberty means I do whatever I want. That's not true. You do whatever you want and you take responsibility for it. That's liberty. It's not why I have the freedom

[01:18:04] to, you know, young people, a lot of I argue with them, say, oh, we have freedom. What freedom? You have freedom to do things that you don't have freedom to take away my freedom. And if you try to take away my freedom, you will suffer the consequence, including me scolding you. That is, you know, freedom, liberty, is something, you know, it's two-way liberty.

[01:18:33] And I think the problem now is too many people think of liberty, people escape responsibility. That's something, you know, we must educate our young. It's not only a liberty. You don't have the liberty to deprive other people's liberty, including other people's property. Otherwise, you suffer the consequence. It is that simple.

[01:19:03] So, I appreciate your time. The fact that you're willing to share so much about your life, and I hope that this interview inspires people to protect liberty, and also challenges them to go think hard and to learn more and not to stop learning. I hope so, too. There's so much to learn, as I said, and this, you will like it if you do it. Sasha Gong, thank you so much. Thank you.

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