Tiananmen Square 1989: The Communist Party Official's Son Who Stood Against the Party | Orren Wang

[00:00:00] His father worked for the Communist Party, and in the spring of 1989, he stood in Tiananmen Square and helped organize a movement against it. Welcome to The Jenny Beth Show. I'm Jenny Beth Martin. Welcome to The Jenny Beth Show.

[00:00:29] Before we get into our interview today, I want to give you a couple of updates about what's happening on this show, The Jenny Beth Show. The most important thing is that we are 33 days out before the election. And during this time, what has become increasingly clear to the team at Tea Party Patriots Action and I, is that we need to make sure we're educating and reminding our fellow Americans about the evils and harms of communism.

[00:00:57] We've seen the rise of the Democratic Socialist Party in America. We've seen people who were endorsed candidates for the Democratic Socialists of America get the nomination in various primaries around the country. They're increasing their membership, and what they want will actually be extremely harmful to America.

[00:01:21] But we see in recent polling that 40% of Americans think that socialism is a good idea. When you read their website, you realize that what they are pushing for isn't just some European-style socialism that some people may call for.

[00:01:38] It is actually much more about a Marxist philosophy that doesn't respect human rights, the constitutional rights, the rights that we are endowed by our creator with, and is more of a Marxist theology. And ultimately, they want to shred our Constitution. We've gone through this before on the show. They want to abolish police. They want to abolish prisons. They want to abolish ICE. They want to open the border. They want to abolish the United States Senate. They want to abolish the Constitution.

[00:02:08] They want to abolish the Senate. They want to ban the Constitution. They want to revamp the Supreme Court, either packing it or dismantling it and make it more subservient to the House of Representatives, which then destroys the three co-equal branches of government, the legislative, the executive, and the judicial. show. You understand that you care about our constitutional values. You care about the Tea

[00:02:37] Party values. So what we have decided to do, and you saw a preview of that on the day before yesterday's show, we are, maybe it was Monday's show, but we are bringing you people who have survived communism and we're interviewing them and we're learning more about what it was like for them growing up in a communist country. We have a panel discussion that will be a three or four part

[00:03:03] panel discussion we're releasing next Friday, a week from tomorrow. And we'll have that each Friday headed into the election, into election day. We'll also have one-on-one interviews about what people who've actually lived under Marxism, socialism, communism, what it was like for them and what they're concerned about when it comes to America. And the reason for that is twofold. Right now,

[00:03:34] we may not be able to, we've got 33 days left until the election. So we may not be able to sway a lot of hearts and minds and educate as many people as we ultimately would like to do on the benefits of our constitutional values and our constitutional way of governing. What we can do is make sure we are remembering, we are reminding the people who already agree with us that Marxism is a problem,

[00:04:00] that socialism is a problem, that communism is a problem, reminding them of those threats, reminding them why it is a problem so that they will be more motivated to help us get out the vote over the next 33 days. They'll be motivated to talk to their friends and family, neighbors and others, talking about the values that truly make this country great, that made it possible for us to celebrate

[00:04:25] 250 years, our anniversary, our birthday this year, and to help us be in a position so that we can do that in 250 years from now. And that's why we're doing these interviews. We have several people who are from China. We have somebody who is from the former Soviet Union. We have someone who is from Hungary,

[00:04:47] someone who is from, we have two different people from Romania. And then we have a couple of people who did not grow up under communism, but have watched it very closely. And we'll be hearing from them as well. So it's going to be a very educational series. I learned a lot talking to the people, and I think

[00:05:11] you are going to learn a lot as you hear from them. If you are somebody who has survived socialism or communism in another country and want to share your story with us, we want to hear it. Make sure you go to tpartypatriots.org. And we'll have a form on our website right now at 1 0 6 on Thursday, October 1st.

[00:05:35] We don't have the form up yet, because I'm saying this on the fly live as we go. But we'll get a form up so you can tell us about your story. And maybe once we get through the election, we can continue to do these kind of interviews. Because I don't think that what we're facing right now when it comes to the Democratic Socialists of America, I don't think that's going away anytime soon. And so we want to make

[00:06:02] sure that you are aware that we're interested in your story. And in fact, if you want to email, you can email me directly if you'd like to. You can email jenny.beth at tpartypatriots.org. And that email address again, it's jenny, J-E-N-N-Y dot Beth, B-E-T-H at tpartypatriots.org. Tell me your story. And then if we are not able to interview you before the election,

[00:06:29] we will be continuing these kind of interviews as we head into the next two years. We think it's very important we keep educating people on this topic. So we're calling it our Surviving Communism Series. And you're going to hear from a person who was part of the organized events. I don't know that it's really a protest the way we think of protests in America, but in Tiananmen Square, the Chinese

[00:06:58] government certainly found it a protest. And we'll be talking to him in just a minute. Before we do that, in addition to telling us your stories, if you've survived communism or socialism directly, you can go and we hope that you will go to IWillSaveAmerica.com. Again, that's IWillSaveAmerica.com and sign up today. We have 10 different kind of activities you can take part in to volunteer to

[00:07:27] get out the vote in the remaining 33 days. Those include registering people to vote if they are not already registered. And it's on the screen in front of you. You can send postcards. You can help us send postcards to voters urging them to vote and handwrite a message on it to those voters. Make phone

[00:07:52] calls and send text messages to voters. Send texts to your friends and family. Go door to door. Become a poll watcher or a poll worker, which we've talked a lot about over the last six weeks. Also, volunteer in a local campaign, donate to the campaign of your choice, and then recruit five friends to take part in these activities. So again, go to IWillSaveAmerica.com and sign up today. All right,

[00:08:21] now we're going to bring in our guest and his name is Orren Wang. And I'm really looking forward to learning more about his story and for him to be able to share it with you. Oren, welcome to the The Jenny Beth Show. Good afternoon, Jenny. How are you? I'm great. Thanks so much for joining us. Well, you're so welcome. I'm so excited. You know, I, Bobby and I have been friends for about two years. You know, I met him in a Trump rally and then since then we've become friends and

[00:08:48] I was excited. Of course, I was a little bit surprised too that you're going to interview me and I watch your series many, many times. You know, it's really, I mean, it's like a dream coming too. You know, I have some, you know, podcasts with local podcasters and yeah, you know, to get on your show is just an honor. Thank you so much for having me. Well, thank you very much. And we are

[00:09:14] so honored that Robert is part of our, our team. He is a great member of the team. So Oren, you grew up in China. Tell, tell us about what it was like growing up in China. Well, yeah, you know, I hear your, you know, you know, your opening statement and yeah, that bring pretty, you know, sad memory. I grew up in

[00:09:40] China and I was, I was born in the 19, early 1960s, but I dodged the bullet. The bullet was the big famine. Yeah. The big famine on the communism from 1959 to 1962, 63, something like that. Some estimates

[00:10:02] say that say that, um, um, over 20 million Chinese population perished during that famine. And that famine is not a natural disaster. It's just a man-made disaster on the communism. And, um, um, yeah, like I said, my early memory would be, you know, I see destructions and deaths and, uh,

[00:10:31] um, you know, it's, uh, um, yeah, it's, you know, I actually wrote a memoir about my life in China. And when I was young, when I probably four or five years old, you know, my neighbors, they couldn't put food on the table. They are farmers. They are farmers. I mean, they, you know, till the soil, harvest the, the, the, the,

[00:10:58] the, the, the, the grains and food, and they couldn't feed themselves because it's under communism. They don't own anything. They don't own the land. They just are like, uh, you know, you know, it's just like a servant to the collectives, to the collectives. They, they cannot, you know, decide, uh, you know, how much they can keep. I mean, all their harvest was, you know, taken away by the

[00:11:27] government. And, um, so that was, you know, early memory and, uh, I can go to into, you know, detail about, uh, you know, the, uh, some, yeah, really personal witnesses that, um, you know, communism, socialism, I, I lump them together. They are pretty much the same.

[00:11:50] Um, and, uh, so socialism, uh, economic, you know, economically is a systemic economic system. I mean, they abandon, they abolish private ownership. Okay. They, you know, nobody owns anything. That's the underpinning of socialism. That I think is one of the, you know, um, it's public ownership.

[00:12:18] I think that's one of the most, um, important things. And one of the things that I've, I've seen and our audience is going to see over the next several weeks, as I've interviewed people who have survived communism and socialism, they all see the same thing. You don't own anything. The government owns it all. And that, that creates very, it creates a lot of difficulty in, in people's lives

[00:12:46] because they no longer own, own their home. They no longer own their, the, the place where they, they live. They are actually slaves because they don't own anything. They, you know, they work for the, you know, collective or state owned enterprise. And then they, you know, everything, you know, the, I just want to say another underpinning of socialism is, uh, um, is,

[00:13:12] central planning. Okay. Is central planning. Everything is, you know, what, what's to produce, how much to produce, how they are distributed. It's all controlled by the, by government. So you basically have no economic freedom at all. And economic freedom is the foundation of other forms of freedom, like political freedom and religious freedom. So that's the root cause.

[00:13:41] You know, they have the private, public ownership, which is state ownership. And then they have the central planning market. They get rid of the market. And, uh, so, uh, you know, how much you can, you can get like for daily comes consumptions. It's all, you know, it's all distributed by central

[00:14:02] planners. And, um, so the shortage is the feature of, um, uh, of socialism shortage. I mean, if you ask people from, you know, Eastern European country before they were communism, before they were under socialism and the shortage, you know, it's, uh, it's, uh, it's a common phenomena. You know,

[00:14:27] I remember when I was kid, when I was kid, we don't have sugar. I mean, sugar, once we have a cold, you know, we have a rat, we ration everything. We ration sugar, like the brown sugar. Okay. I remember that, uh, you know, for every year before Chinese new year, we got a ration, like a pound,

[00:14:52] maybe two pounds of sugar for each family. And, um, there is, um, and the show again, shortage is, it's, it's a feature. There's, there's no business. Yeah. There's no business. Nobody was allowed to, to, um, to have any kind of business. You know, in my book, I wrote two incidents. I was, you know,

[00:15:17] six, seven years old. My neighbors are peasants. I live in the countryside and all my neighbors are villagers and, uh, they have a tradition. You know, it was, uh, uh, it was, uh, craft that passed from one generation to the next, all my, all the villagers, they know how to make, um, firecracker.

[00:15:40] Okay. Firecracker. And because, you know, in, in China, you, you know, Chinese new year is a time people just, you know, fire up the firecracker. And also there are some celebratory, you know, events, people want to buy, you know, uh, firecracker and my neighbors, they just, uh, and all this,

[00:16:03] these activities was, was banned by the government because, you know, it's, it's not in the central planning, you know, under central planning system, every villagers, they are supposed to work on the field. They are not allowed to do anything else. So in winter time, when there was no work on the farms, I mean, these, uh, villages, they tried to get some extra income. So they, they put together,

[00:16:31] uh, you know, they, they really don't need much investment. They just buy some tools, buy some materials, and then they cannot allow, you know, they, they have to work, uh, at night. They closed, I mean, there's no windows. I mean, all these, all these houses are very small windows. They cover the windows. And, uh, so, uh, you know, so that the officials will not notice, but there were wings,

[00:16:58] you know, some people just, you know, say, Oh yeah, these neighbors or that neighbors, they started making this firecrackers, you know, within a few weeks. And the local government officials just stormed in and took away their tools and took away their semi products. And those farmers, those villagers, they try to make some extra money for the Chinese new year,

[00:17:24] so that they can buy a new shoes for their kids, maybe put a few more pounds of no meat on the table. I mean, that was, it was, I was very young. I, you know, even when I, at such a young age, I was so outraged, you know, I was so outraged. And that's one example. Another example is,

[00:17:47] you know, um, uh, you know, in this instance, they, that does not, they don't allow private ownership, you know, production without central planning. Another example is, um, uh, is the market, you know, uh, that's, that's when I was like, you know, 10, 11 years old, I went to a school

[00:18:12] on my way to, to the school. Usually it was all, you know, rice paddy. And, uh, one year I, in the spring of one year, I noticed that they, you know, the farmers carve out, uh, peach, you know, orchard, and then they plant some trees and in the next few years, and they did harvest some peaches. I mean, and then the, the, the, the local government,

[00:18:40] the county government said that, no, you cannot make money. The communism hate cash, okay. Because the peaches are cash crops. So the county government say, yeah, you cannot do that. Then they uproot the peaches when they are in their prime time. And, uh, you know, those two incidents, you know, I remember so vividly and, uh, you, you know, when we were kids, we, we don't have any fruit.

[00:19:06] We don't have any fruit. We have our, we, the only thing we have is, you know, we have a vegetable garden. We grow on our vegetables. So yeah, it's, um, uh, yeah, it's saying that they, they grew the peaches and then they had to throw them out because it wasn't. Oh yeah. Yeah. They, they were ordered the, you know, the local. Even though people were starving from a famine and you didn't have food,

[00:19:35] they're still just wasting it and throwing it away. That's why I say the famine is not, uh, a natural disaster. It's a man-made disaster. I mean, the farmers, I mean, I can walk you through after 1979, you know, you just took one year. Okay. Of course in 1979, the, the, the, the, the Chinese leader who passed away, he's pretty popular in the West and he

[00:20:04] initiated economic reform. It just took one year for the pay, for the, for the villagers to free themselves. You just, you know, under communism, people's hands were tied on their back. Okay. While they were starving. If you just untie their hand, they can, you know, they can free themselves.

[00:20:27] They can find a way to prosperity. That's why I think socialism fundamentally, they take away your, you know, you take away the private ownership, they get rid of the market. So people cannot have any, you know, economic freedom to improve their lives, to make products and, you know, make services to

[00:20:53] serve other people. It's just, like I said, it's just, they tied your hands behind your back and, and let you, you know, stop. Um, then that is just, it's, uh, it's something that people in America just, they can't fathom. They can't imagine that because we have so much freedom that we can't even

[00:21:19] imagine what that would be, what that would be like. Yeah. Orin your, your father was in the communist party locally. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Actually my father, he came from a very poor family. He did not even go to school. Both my parents never went to school. And my mom actually

[00:21:43] was illiterate until she passed away. But my, my dad, when, when he was, uh, young and his father is alcoholic and, uh, but he want to, you know, he want to be able to read and, you know, read and write. So he just taught himself, you know, he just, uh, you know, in that time, uh, you know, there were no public education in China. And so it's all private tutoring, you know, all his cousins,

[00:22:12] yeah, the cousins, you know, they, they, uh, his cousins, they have good, better parents. So they are doing well financially than my dad's family. So they were, uh, able to afford private tutoring. So my dad just sit outside of the tut, you know, the, the classroom tutoring room, he learned to read and write. And then in 1970, uh, 1947, the communist party took over the, uh, they overthrew,

[00:22:42] you know, they overthrew the nationalist party, which is pro, you know, Western pro democracy, pro market economy, the Chinese came, you know, Chinese communist party come over and they want to have their own, you know, local government. Right. And my dad was able to read and write probably at like a third grade, fourth grade level. So he was recruited by communist, uh,

[00:23:10] government. He, yeah, he served in a lower level, very low level, uh, like a township, you know, government level. And yeah, he become a communist. And, uh, uh, uh, of course I left, uh, I, I left her, my family and went to college when I was, uh, 18 years old. So he did not have much influence on me. You know, when, whenever I criticize communism, I never think about, oh, my dad

[00:23:41] was from the system. And, uh, and, uh, and in the communist government, they have a very high level. I mean, at his level, I mean, he's no better than the average citizens. So. No, that's, that's part of it. They, they have, they have to have that bureaucracy all the way down to a local level in order to, to exert control. So. To exert control. Exactly. Yeah. So let's talk,

[00:24:09] talk about the, so you, you did grow up either educated or at least getting tutors, right? Because you were able to go on to college. Oh yeah. Okay. Of course. Yeah. And, uh, you know, the reason I got into, uh, I started school, all my childhood friends, they never went to school. All my childhood friends. And, uh, my mom, I, my mom is, uh, yeah, like I said, mom, my mom couldn't read and write.

[00:24:39] And, uh, she was frustrated that, uh, she couldn't write. And, uh, she, uh, she told us that, uh, whenever she went to, uh, another place is she couldn't, she couldn't, you know, recognize which bathroom is for women and which bathroom is for men. So she, uh, she had to hide, you know, you

[00:25:03] know, from the best public bathroom. And she, she, you know, she waits until, you know, which bathroom come out the lady or a man. Then she decided which bathroom to went to, to go. And she said that she was frustrated. She called herself blind, but with perfect vision. She, yeah, she couldn't read. And she said that, you know, she said that our, my kids shouldn't, you know, live like this. So

[00:25:32] she sent us to school and my school wasn't, uh, uh, uh, formal school. It was in the ancestry hole in the, in the ancestry hole. They just put, you know, just come out to, you know, two rooms. You know, I actually have classes, you know, when I was fourth grade, I have class with the first graders.

[00:25:54] And so that's how I, uh, got up to fifth, fourth grade and the final year, I went to the town and I, for, you know, for the final years of elementary school. And then, um, then I have, yeah, I have formal education. Of course, it's very poor formal education. And it was all attributed

[00:26:17] to my mom. I have to say, she has the vision, you know, to say, I mean, her, her expectation was very low. She said that I just want you to read and write, you know, because she, yeah, she imagined that I would work as a farmer on the public owned farm. And sometimes, you know, this, uh, this,

[00:26:42] the bookkeepers of this, you know, uh, collective farmer units, and sometimes they are very mean. You know, if you put up like six hours of, you know, field work, they, they write down three, three hours. My mom wants to make sure that I will not be treated in that way. If you put up, you know, six hours, you get six hours of credit because that credit is for future, uh, for the,

[00:27:09] for the harvest distribution at the end of the season. So my mom said, okay, yeah, you know, the expectation is low. You should remember, you know, you know, you put up four hours, six hours, you get four hours, six hours credit. So that's the low expectation. You know, you just, you know, you blew her mind. You know, when I graduated in high school and that I was able to,

[00:27:37] I, I, you know, I, it was the right moment. You know, when I graduated from high school, all the economic reform have been initiated many years earlier. And then, uh, like two years, three years before I graduated from high school and the Chinese college and then universities, uh, uh, start admitting students, uh, from high school before that for 10 years, all Chinese colleges

[00:28:03] and universities were closed because I was during the cultural revolution. And, uh, all the professors, they were sent to the countryside to raise pigs, to work in the field. And yeah, it was a very, uh, like I said, uh, you know, uh, socialism is not just the economic system, you know, they abolish private ownership. They let central planning determine every aspect of their life. Then politically,

[00:28:34] I mean, they dismantle all the institutions. They, they, they really dismantle all the institutions. And, uh, you know, there's the, uh, you know, if the, you know, county official or even the township official think that you are a bad guy, you could be thrown into jail. There's no, you know, no economic freedom, no religious freedom. And, uh, of course the need, you know, the, the, the, the economic reform

[00:29:03] that was initiated in the late 1980s, uh, they give some, you know, the people, uh, just some economic freedom. And that's why, uh, you know, they have that, you know, China experienced some economic growth, you know, some people call it a economic miracle. And when my son attribute this to my son, he's a socialist. He graduated from UC Berkeley and he's a socialist, you know, he called himself a

[00:29:31] socialist. He, and I said, well, I live through socialism. You know, I only saw horror destruction and death disappear. He said, no, no, look at China. And I said, no, Chinese economic growth is the testimony of, uh, you know, of, uh, the benefit of socialism. All the economic, uh, you know, achievement China has made. It's just because they pro they give some level of private ownership.

[00:30:01] They open up the market. So it's the contrary. So let me ask, I will come back to that part in a minute. Let, let's talk about this for suit. You went to college and then how old were you and what happened in 1989 with Tiananmen Square?

[00:30:24] Oh, in 1989. You know, if people talk about 1989, the student movement, first of all, uh, it was a national, uh, it was nationwide. It was not just in Beijing. It was just in Beijing. When I, whenever I talk about Tiananmen Square, that the Tiananmen, uh, that, uh, 1989 student movement, I always tell people,

[00:30:49] okay, look at two years earlier, you know, look at two years earlier in 1987, I think it's two, uh, it's 1986, December. Yeah. 2000, December, 1986. I was in the, in the provincial capital. And so, um,

[00:31:10] um, in that year, there was a, there was a student demonstration triggered by a local election. And, and, uh, of course that movement was contained. And then during the two year period from 1986, 87 to 1989,

[00:31:39] the communist part of economic reform, you know, you call it economy was developed to a certain extent, but they still kept a tight control on the political system, like elections and, uh, you know, freedom, you know, you know, religious freedom, uh, freedom of expression. And, uh, they went after, you know, journalists who report, you know, they are pressed, you know, press freedom. Yeah. They,

[00:32:08] uh, they are pressed, you know, press freedom. And, uh, so that's, you know, in 1986, like I said, in 1986, there was a local election in the provincial capital of my home state, home province. And, uh, so every election, every local election, they say, well, the Chinese come, the proper Chinese propaganda is that, oh, we have elections, but it is not a free, fair election.

[00:32:34] First of all, you know, they select the candidates. Sometimes they only select one candidate. Okay. For you to vote for you to vote. That's a mockery of democracy, right? So in that, in 1986, there's a local government, local election, the local party, uh, the party officials select one candidate. And then another, uh, I think it's, uh, I think it's an activist. I mean, he said he

[00:33:03] nominated himself and then he wants to get on the ballot and he was rejected. And so the students in that, in the provincial city, uh, provincial capital, they just state a protest. Okay. It was a pretty big protest, you know, um, and then it was crushed. It was crushed. It was contained by the government, you know, propaganda. And then two years later, the situation got even

[00:33:33] worse because the corruption was, uh, it's still the, the, the, the plan economy. You know, they allow certain section of the economy to be governed by market demand in the very crucial industries, like a steel industry, you know, it's still controlled, you know, how, um, you know, there was, again, there was a shortage on the communism during that time. I'm giving you one example.

[00:33:59] The steel mill were owned by communist government. So they can, they control how much to produce, how much, you know, to distribute. And again, there's a shortage, you know, shortage, again, shortage is the feature of planning economy. So there is a shortage, but on the, on the construction

[00:34:24] market, that's a, that's, that market is, you know, governed by, you know, free market, you know, people want to buy apartment. Okay. Then that apartment to build that apartment needs steel, right? Those developers, they need steel, but where can I get steel? You cannot get steel from the open market, but the people who control the quota, they, they can just say, okay, I'm going to give you

[00:34:49] something something at the price that's not determined by market. Market price is like a hundred thousand turn. And this, this, this, this, this controlled price is much lower. So there's a price difference. I mean, that's the, that's the, the, the, the, uh, yeah, that area that, you know, cost a lot of corruption because they just, you know, the people who control how to distribute steel, they can just

[00:35:17] say, okay, I'm going to give you, you know, a hundred tons and then you pay me, you know, bribery. So during that period, that two year period, the corruption was rampant. The inflation was, uh, you know, was skyrocketing. So that triggered the 1989 student demonstration. We call it a student demonstration, democratic student. I call it a student led democratic movement. You, you know,

[00:35:43] the participants were not just a student college students. They were all, you know, people from all workers of life. That's why, you know, it's nationwide. It was the biggest, you know, anti-communist government movement across the country. The Chinese communist government almost collapsed. That's why they have, cause the, you know, the epic center is in Beijing. Yeah. The epic center is in Beijing.

[00:36:11] So the, the Chinese army just stormed the Tiananmen square to crush the student movement to just, uh, uh, and that's how they, you know, the, the, the, the, the, you know, other provinces. And, uh, so they were not, uh, you know, they were not so united. And, uh, and, uh, so, uh, that's how, uh, yeah, they crashed the student movement.

[00:36:38] Of course, after that, they just exert even tighter control, um, you know, on demonstrations, on, on, on, on gatherings, even, you know, even, even gatherings were banned. So. So, um, in what did, did, did, were you concerned about your own safety and freedom during that, that time, were you afraid that they would come after you? And also at what point did you come to America?

[00:37:08] Okay. Yeah. That was in 1989. I actually wasn't in Beijing, you know, like, again, it's, it's called Tiananmen square, but it's nationwide. I was in graduate school at that time.

[00:37:21] I was in graduate school. I was in southwestern part of the country. And, uh, you know, it was, uh, you know, during that period of time, you know, the communication was not very good. And, uh, and initially we could hear the Chinese official news report about the demonstrations.

[00:37:43] But when the things get worse to the government, the government step in, they just stop, you know, Chinese official media from reporting the demonstration in Beijing.

[00:37:56] And, uh, you know, I, like, like I said, I was in graduate school and I was at that time, I could, uh, I could, uh, you know, listen to voice of America. Okay. Voice of America. I, I, by the way, I learned English by radio.

[00:38:15] So by that time I had learned, I had listened to voice of America for probably five or even six years. So I could understand, uh, the reporting from voice of America. So, uh, then I, you know, I was in graduate school and again, Chinese official media, state media, they were not reporting, they were not reporting the demonstration in Beijing.

[00:38:41] But I heard something different, right? You know, I, I just, you know, listen to voice of America and post and post all the demonstrations, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, in a bulletin board, bulletin board on campus on my graduate school campus.

[00:38:59] And then, you know, fast forward, uh, in, um, I think in late May, the Chinese government, uh, just, uh, uh, you know, declared a martial law in Beijing and that really angered everybody. So, you know, on that night, I, I remember it's May the 11th, no, May the 19th.

[00:39:25] And the Chinese prime minister, he was a hotliner, communist, uh, official. He came on TV. I think it's, it's about 11 o'clock at night. He came on TV and declared the martial law in, in, in Beijing. We were so angered. We were so angered. We just took to the street right away. You know, we did not even finish his speech. We, we went to the, uh, we went to the street and, uh, cause you know, in, in the provincial, uh,

[00:39:54] it's Sichuan province, you know, it's Chengdu and the city, the capital is Chengdu. So there is a huge, in China, every big city, they have a big square, right? For gathering. So we walk, I mean, there's no bus 11 o'clock. So, and it was raining like crazy. So we went, we probably walk. Usually we even either rode a bike or took school bus to the center, to that area. So we just, we did not finish again.

[00:40:24] We did not finish watching the, the, the, the, the announcement for martial law. And so we went to the, you know, the city square to demonstrate. And, uh, it was the whole night. It was a whole night. And, uh, when I, you know, of course we were chanting slogans and, uh, we were completely wet. It was raining like crazy. And then by the next morning I came back like 10 o'clock, I lost my voice for like two weeks.

[00:40:54] Cause we were chanting, cause we were chanting. I lost my voice for like two weeks. And, uh, yeah, it was, you know, I, you couldn't hear me. Even I speak to you. Even I spoke to you in your face. You couldn't hear me. I lost my voice completely for three and a half, two and two and a half weeks. And of course that was in May. And then the final blow comes on June the four, June the 4th.

[00:41:22] That's when the army stormed the Tiananmen square. And, uh, they finally, they killed, you know, many, many people. You know, I think the government figure is, uh, it's a complete underestimate. They say it's like 400 people. I would say, you know, it's, it's in thousands, but, uh,

[00:41:46] um, yeah, there's no, you know, verification, you know, verification of their official numbers. And, uh, so. And then how did you get to America and what year did you get to America? How did I get to America? Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. That was in 1989. I have two more years to go through college.

[00:42:09] And, um, um, um, I have to say after the government crushed the student movement, they did not go, they did not want to go as far as they wanted. They did not go as far as they wanted. So they show some leniency to the students. I could have been arrested.

[00:42:34] I could have been arrested, but, uh, uh, you know, I'm not a high profile student on campus. So it was just iteration, you know, that I was so active during that few months. So, you know, nobody remember me. Nobody, nobody recognized me. If I'm, if I will well-knowing, I probably will be arrested. So, you know, I, I, I kept a low profile before that.

[00:43:02] And then after, you know, the, the incident passed over, nobody remember, nobody knew me. So I, then I graduated from high school, graduate from graduate school. And, um, and I was able to go to this, you know, southern part of the country, you know, near Guangdong, near Hong Kong. And it took me five years.

[00:43:26] It's, you know, I actually, uh, took, uh, the test of English as a foreign language. That's a test for admission to U.S. colleges. I was going to do business school. So I already passed, I passed the GMAT, the graduate management admission test. That's right. Those are, uh, well, after I passed this exam right after the Tiananmen Square. Before that, I would, I never thought about that, that I would come to the United States.

[00:43:55] And I completely lost my hope. And I said, well, you know, this country, you know, uh, cause yeah, it was, you know, such a, such a massive, you know, demonstrative movement. Again, it's not just the students, you know, the farmers, the worker, you know, the workers in the factories, the, the intellectuals, you know, college professors and researchers.

[00:44:24] And institutions, they all participate. They think, I thought that that was the best shot that we could have to have a democracy, you know, uh, maybe at a lower level. I mean, we were just asking for, you know, free fair.

[00:44:51] In Beijing, a family church was celebrate, was planning a event to celebrate their 20 years anniversary. More than a hundred police just stormed their events, their venue. And even up today, you know, so, you know, after the, after Tiananmen Square and I said, well, I don't have any future. You know, I don't have any future in this country.

[00:45:19] So I was thinking about, you know, leave the country. Where should I, where could I go? I mean, the United States, you know, honestly speaking is the best country in the world. I mean, you have a pass just, you know, I don't have a relative. Okay. So they can respond, you know, my, you know, you know, visa application, something like that. But, you know, United States, you have a pass.

[00:45:45] You only, you know, you only require you to work hard. And I said, well, I'm going to the United States to, you know, to study. Okay. There is a student visa, right? I don't need anybody to sponsor me. You know, I just do, you know, well on my exams, you know, test of English as a foreign language, graduate admission test. I did very well. So, you know, and I said, well, I need to, you know, of course there's, you know,

[00:46:14] there's a financial scholarship, financial sponsorship. I need somebody in the United States to say, okay, yeah, if this guy cannot pay his tuition, we will pay for his tuition. And then it took me another two or three years to find somebody just to sign on a dotted line. I never used her pen, you know, I never used a penny. She just said, okay, yeah, she signed. Because she needs to sign in a document called I-20.

[00:46:41] It's the document that I take it, that I took it to the U.S. embassy for a student visa. So overall, it took me like, you know, five years. You know, I came to the United States in 1989. In 1994, I went to Western Kentucky University. I got a degree from that university. I'm a professional. I'm an accountant. I'm a CPA.

[00:47:10] So what was it like? First, you just said that the United States is the greatest country in the world. What was it like when you first got to America and you experienced freedom of religion, freedom of press, freedom of economic freedom, private property ownership? Did you think about the differences in America versus China? The number one difference. Of course, I was a student.

[00:47:39] I came here with $1,000 in my pocket. Okay. With $1,000 in my pocket when I landed in Los Angeles International Airport. By the time I got to campus, I only have $900 left because I stayed in a motel.

[00:47:58] I took a shuttle bus from Los Angeles International Airport to Ontario because that's where my connection flight was from. So by the time I got on campus, I only have $900 in my pocket. That was for – I did not even have money for my tuition. I got a scholarship – not scholarship, but assistantship. And I work for the professors 20 hours a week.

[00:48:27] But that money did not come yet. So I had to borrow money from my friends. I remember my friends, Pat and Wallens, they live in Florida. I know them when they were in China. Okay. They were teachers in my university. And so she sent me a check, $400, so that I could pay tuition. And then – because when I work as a assistant, I get paid every month, every other week, I believe.

[00:48:56] So – and I was able to return the money after like four or five months. So economic freedom, there was – initially, I did not test economic freedom, but religious freedom right away. Yeah, right away. And on campus, we have a professor. He's a history professor. And he's a devout Christian.

[00:49:20] And on every Friday, he gather all the Chinese scholars and Chinese students for Bible study. And in China, that was banned. That was banned. And that's – you know, that's – you know, I become a Christian when I was in China. And again, you know, all the activities were banned. And all of a sudden, we have a, you know, college professor.

[00:49:49] He gather us, you know, to study Bible and have fellowship. I mean, that religious freedom, that was – you know, that really was shocking to me. And of course, that – not only, you know, I developed, you know, fellowship with getting closer to God. And then I also expanded my social network. Because when I came here, I knew nobody. I knew nobody. I don't even know where to buy grocery.

[00:50:17] So, yeah, that – and that really plugged me into the, you know, local, you know, Christian communities and also making friends with other Chinese friends and Chinese scholars. And, of course, you know, after I graduated, you know, it took me like two years to get a job. And I don't complain it because every country has their own system.

[00:50:47] I mean, some country, you can never have the, you know, the chance to become a citizen, right? It took me a little longer. You know, if you were born here, you become a citizen immediately. You have no restriction for employment, right? But after I graduated with a master's degree in accounting, and it took me two years to find a job because all the accounting firms, they recruit on campuses. But I interview with their partners and their senior managers.

[00:51:16] And they say, oh, we don't know how to hire you. Okay, you're an international student. And so it took me two years to finally find the employment. And the employer sponsor my green card. And then I become a U.S. citizen. Overall, it took me like 14 years from the time I, you know, come to the United States as a student. It took me like 14 years to become a U.S. citizen. And like I said, I don't, you know, I don't complain. Every country has their own laws, right?

[00:51:47] You don't become a citizen automatically. And I actually, you know, cherish, you know, my, the years that I went through because that make me stronger. That make me, you know, you know what I really want, right? If you really want something, you work very hard at it. So, yeah, like I said, I don't complain. I fully support, you know, President Trump's, you know, immigration policy.

[00:52:16] I may have different views on other policies. And, you know, this immigration policy, we got to have our borders secured. And we need to have the, you know, the process. You know, you cannot come to this country, you know, illegally and then claim all the benefits. That, that's not the way it should be. So. Yeah, that is absolutely correct. And you did it the legal way.

[00:52:43] And it does take time, but you were able to do it, get a job. And, and you're here now. Oren, you know, one thing that must be, I, and you mentioned earlier that your mother, when she died, she was illiterate. So I know that she is no longer living. She must have been quite amazed that her son not only could read in Chinese, but also in English.

[00:53:07] And that you were able to, to do both languages and be literate in more than, and not just literate, but fluent in more than one language. Well, I would say, you know, my life only proved that with God, everything is possible. I think it's Matthew 1926. With God, everything is possible.

[00:53:36] I mean, there's only one explanation. There's only one explanation that, you know, it's, it's God's willing, you know, it's, I couldn't do it myself. I couldn't do it myself. And all the, yeah, I, when I look back on my life, you know, all the crucial moment, it was, you know, it was God's work. It was God's work.

[00:54:05] I mean, there's no denial. And I can give you another example. You know, when I was, you know, when I was in my first year, second year of, no, actually the first, first year of graduate school in Western Kentucky University. You know, my wife, you know, suddenly, you know, she got pregnant. We did not plan it for, we did not plan at all for our family. And, and so she was, you know, she was young.

[00:54:33] She was talking about, you know, getting abortion, you know, because abortion was prevalent even, you know, at that time. And she said that, you know, there's no way we couldn't even support ourselves. And she wanted to have abortion. And she pushed me to say, okay, there was no abortion clinic in Bowling Green. That's where the Western Kentucky University is located.

[00:54:58] And the nearest one is, you know, it's in Nashville. And she pushed me to, you know, get, I love kids. And I, you know, I couldn't carry the baby. I would carry the baby no matter what. But so one day and I was driving on I-65. That's the highway in the state from Kentucky to Tennessee.

[00:55:25] And I drove along that way many, many times. And during that period of time, you know, before we were really making appointments for abortion. I drove on I-65. I raised my head and look at the billboard. Look at the billboard. The billboard shows a lovely baby. Under his photo, there's a line.

[00:55:54] It says, if you kill the baby now, it's called murder. If you call the baby six months ago, it's abortion. Okay. That really shocked me to the core. And I mean, how come? I drove on that street, I drove on that section of the I-65 all the time. That's, I mean, Bowling Green is a very small town.

[00:56:24] If you even go to another neighboring town, you get on highway. And that's, you know, I drove that many, many times. During that period of time, you know, all this, God revealed the message. Hey, you cannot do it. You cannot do it. So then I said, well, no matter what, we're going to kill the baby. And, yeah, you know, we keep the baby. I mean, now he's my only child. So, yeah, I'm just giving example.

[00:56:52] I mean, look at, look at, yeah, I look at all the major events in my life. And there's no denying that, you know, God, you know, working, you know, in everybody's life. So, so. That is so true. And I'm very, very glad you kept your baby and, and that you, you have a child. Or, and I want to ask you one, one last question.

[00:57:21] You, you grew up in a communist country where there were famines and your parents were, were not educated well. You lived through the student protests that we all heard about from Tiananmen Square, but that were happening around the entire country in China. And now you, and you talked about how America is the greatest country in the world. And we have freedom here that you certainly did not have there.

[00:57:46] What do you think when you're hearing young people in America today say they want to abolish the police or abolish ICE or abolish the Senate or, or abolish prisons, that they want to have health care for all and no capitalism,

[00:58:07] and that everyone is somehow going to have their own housing and all of their bills are going to be taken care of magically. What, what do you think of that? And do you have a warning for Americans as they hear, hear these promises? It's some very alluring and very tempting, but you've lived through the reality of those promises.

[00:58:30] Well, I, first of all, I think only, you know, only lunatic think that these ideas are appealing. And only lunatic think that their, you know, platforms are appealing.

[00:58:59] And, of course, that's, you know, these people, they're never living under communism. They don't know what they're talking about.

[00:59:21] And the only way is that, you know, they will bring in Washington. I don't know. The books, of course, I would never talk. They have free food, regular, you know, illnesses.

[00:59:48] And it's the same thing in China, you know, communism, socialism. Under socialism, there was no Medicare at all. I mean, there were no doctors, you know, in the countryside. You know, if you get sick and then you find some, you know, cure yourself. And if you cannot survive, then you die. I don't know. Anybody in their right mind will not endorse their, you know, platform.

[01:00:16] Like I said, if you abolish, you know, you know, if you say a government should own anything and you lose your economic freedom, you know, first of all. And then gradually you lose your religious freedom and you lose your political freedom and you become, you know, subservient to the government.

[01:00:44] And, yeah, I, my warning is that that's the road you don't even want to take a look. I mean, that's the road. It's proven. It's not just from China. It's not just from my own testimony. I mean, you, just like you said, you're going to have other guests to provide, you know, testimony.

[01:01:06] And just like you said, you know, 40% of Americans, you know, younger people, especially younger people, they believe socialism is a good idea.

[01:01:17] But again, what I saw is just, you know, death and destruction and disappear and disappear, you know, and maybe, you know, capitalism, we probably need some reform, you know, some reform. Like capitalism, free market, you know, capitalism. That's the way to prosperity.

[01:01:43] We may have some, you know, we used to have antitrust, you know, legislations. We break up, you know, monopolies in industries. And, you know, I think we probably need to, probably need to, you know, break up the monopoly, you know, restore free market economy. And I keep telling people, you know, fighting monopoly is actually a Republican idea.

[01:02:13] It's a Republican idea. I mean, we remember, we know that Ted Roosevelt, right? He become president, you know, because the president was assassinated. He was the vice president. He become president after McKinsey, right? I mean, McKinley, you know, was assassinated at the end of 19th century. And then at that time, there were many monopolies. And he actually, Ted Roosevelt is a Republican president.

[01:02:41] And the Republican legislature worked with him. They just, you know, they put out a lot of legislation, you know, break up monopolies so that, you know, free market economy can work, you know.

[01:02:58] So I think that's probably the way that, you know, we should have some reform and actually for capitalism to survive, to survive.

[01:03:18] Because, so I think that's probably a tribute to some of the, you know, the popularity of, you know, of socialism among young people. They say, oh, yeah, this economy doesn't work for me. And so that's, you know, this is probably not a very popular opinion.

[01:03:42] I think that, you know, even communist, social capitalism, as we know now, maybe need some reform so that we can restore the free market economy. Because free market economy is, yeah, it's for economic prosperity. I think the time is up, right? Yeah, but that is right, what you were just saying there, Oren. We need free markets. We need less regulation from the government and less interference.

[01:04:11] And I think part of what the young people are upset about is that the results of what they're seeing is too much government interference. Especially we're seeing still the effects of the lockdowns related to COVID and the blue states that stayed locked down. And then the interference we saw from the Biden administration. So that's exactly right.

[01:04:37] Well, Oren, thank you so much for sharing your story today, your testimony with us. And thank you for joining me on the show. If you enjoyed today's conversation, go ahead and hit like and subscribe. It really helps us reach more people who care about liberty and the Constitution. You can find this and other episodes at JennyBethShow.com, as well as Facebook, YouTube, Rumble, Instagram, X, and your favorite podcast platform.

[01:05:04] The Jenny Beth Show is hosted by Jenny Beth Martin. The Jenny Beth Show is a production of Tea Party Patriots Action. For more information, visit teapartypatriots.org.