Nicaragua: He Got Out One Year Before the Sandinistas Took His Country | Onofre Gutierrez

[00:00:00] I sat down with people from five countries who know what communism actually does. Today, we will learn more about what happened to them in communist countries, to their families, to their food, their churches and their futures.

[00:00:12] Captain Onofre Gutierrez did not survive communism. He left Nicaragua in 1978 and the Sandinistas didn't take Managua until July 1979. He grew up under what was a Somoza dictatorship, authoritarian, brutal in its own way, and that was a government the communists overthrew a year after he left the country.

[00:00:37] Captain Onofre Gutierrez, The New York Times is here to tell you something that no one else in the surviving communism series can tell you. He got out one year before the door closed and then he stood here in America safe and watched his country go to communists with people he loves still inside. Captain Onofre Gutierrez, the New York Times, the excused인�Zoost the country of China. Captain Onofre Gutierrez, The New York Times has just been a Edward Flaherty in African-American history, then 47 more years under the Sandinistas and Ortega.

[00:01:02] Captain Onofre Gutierrez, The New York Times, Nicaragua has not seen a single day of freedom. Not one single day. He wanted to fly since he was a boy, and a boy in an authoritarian regime does not always get to see their dreams become reality. In 1991, he was hired in America at an airline as a loader and he loaded airplanes. By 1996, he was a captain and he finished running the company.

[00:01:30] He came to Managua with nothing and ended up on the Smithsonian's Wall of Honor for aviators. Where else can something like that actually happen but here in America with our liberty and our freedoms that are protected by our Constitution? Here's Captain Onofre Gutierrez.

[00:02:04] Welcome to the Jenny Beth Show. My guest today is Onofre Gutierrez who is from Nicaragua originally and you immigrated to America in what, 1978? Permanently, yes, in 1978. And so you were in Nicaragua before it actually became a communist country. Right. You still lived under authoritarianism. Yes.

[00:02:31] Talk about what life was like growing up there. On the personal level, life was good. My family, my father, he was a journalist. He had his own radio news show and he was a correspondent for the Associated Press. So he had access to a lot of the places through the government. And he was well known through the conservative party and the liberal party and the Somoza regime.

[00:02:59] Even Somoza knew who he was. So he was well embedded for his news and all that. And I used to go with him. And I used to go with him when I had time off. I was in my teenage years. I used to accompany him to all of his meetings. And I got to meet a lot of his personalities out there.

[00:03:19] He was very interesting because I learned a lot about the Nicaragua politics, how things were going, who were the friends and foes, and who to trust, who not to trust. I mean, it was one of those things where don't say this here. You can't express yourself here. It was kind of like that. One of the hidden rules was you don't criticize Somoza or his family or nothing like that, you know, because that would be totally up against you.

[00:03:51] And during that time, there were a couple of things that happened that they started shaping the party. And in the political realm, I guess, in Nicaragua, for example, the earthquake in 1972. And this December 23rd at midnight, we had a tremendous earthquake in the capital.

[00:04:10] And that started a catalyst that people were not too happy with the Somoza regime because we were receiving a lot of humanitarian aid for the people who were damaged. And the A was not getting to the needy people. It was the army was basically taking that away from everybody. They were basically saying, oh, take a look at this. This is nice. I'll take it.

[00:04:40] And Somoza did not do too much about it. So I believe the Sandinista movement saw that as an advantage to say, hey, this is what you guys have. We have a better solution for you guys. And after that, there were those attacks that came in. One, it was in 1974 when the Sandinistas basically attacked this Christmas party, Chema Castillo's house, and they killed him.

[00:05:08] He was a minister. I'm trying to remember. I believe their goal, the Sandinista goal, was to capture, I think it was the ambassador's name was Shelton, who came to the party but left before the attack. So you could see that they were getting bolder and bolder and bolder. And also their influence in the universities, getting the youth to take their side. Hey, Somoza is bad, 40-some years. We have a better option for you guys.

[00:05:38] And, of course, everything culminated in 1978 when they assassinated Pedro Joaquín Chamorro, the opposition, basically voice of the opposition. He had a newspaper called, named La Prensa, which is still there. They asked, I, this is my personal belief. I believe the Sandinistas killed him.

[00:06:01] And Somoza had no business on doing any harm to Pedro Joaquín Chamorro because Chamorro having the newspaper was the opposition voice of Somoza. So it was like, hey, I have freedom of the press. This guy is always attacking me. Right. So it was not for his benefit to have him killed.

[00:06:25] But if you really think about it, the Sandinistas had a lot to gain by killing him because then they would say Somoza killed him. And everybody basically believed that. And that was the start. That was the, basically the spark of the end of the Somoza regime. And then, of course, President Carter was in there.

[00:06:47] And I would say the last nail in the coffin for Somoza was when they assassinated the, I think it's an ABC reporter in Nicaragua. I'm trying to remember his name. He was doing a short film. And it was on TV. It was broadcasted here where the guards, supposedly the guard, shot him. And so Carter said, that's it. No more aid to Nicaragua.

[00:07:13] And basically they allowed the Sandinistas to come in. Now tell people more about Sandinista because I'm sure there are people who are watching this right now who just aren't familiar with Sandinista. The, okay.

[00:07:31] And as far as I can remember, as far as I know, the story of Sandino goes back to the early ages in Nicaragua in the early 1900s. Okay. When we had the two conservative and liberal parties just at each other's, at each other's throat. And the U.S. in that time were planning on creating a canal. Nicaragua was the second option besides Panama. Okay.

[00:08:00] Because you have the Rio San Juan that goes all the way to the big lake and then you only have not even 50 miles of land that you have to go through to finish up a canal. So the U.S. sent the Marines in to say, hey, we need to calm this down because we want to see what we're going to do. And Sandino was not too happy that there wasn't an aggression from another country.

[00:08:29] His belief was this is our problem, not anybody else's. So he fought against the U.S. Marines. I believe that was the first time the U.S. Marines had a guerrilla warfare up in the mountains because that's how Sandino used to fight. You know. So, then a couple of years later, the Marines left, but they left, installed the National Guard.

[00:08:58] And the National Guard owned the Somoza Garcia, the first Somoza. He became the general for the National Guard. From that time on, Silvio Mayorga and Carlos Fonseca Amador, and there's another guy, they were indoctrinated in Russia. I think I got ahead of myself. Let me go back a little bit.

[00:09:29] When, so, Mosa Garcia basically said, okay, we have to make peace with Sandino. So, he invited Sandino and his confidants, I may say, to the presidency to have dinner and to sign a peace treaty. I think it was $10 per rifle or something like that. So, they signed the treaty. When Sandino was leaving that meeting, he was ambushed, taken in, and killed. So, Somoza betrayed Sandino.

[00:09:58] So, now here we are, let's say 30 years later, and we have this young group, Amador and Mayorga. They take Sandino's name. And they say, he's going to be our hero, our martyr. The man who fought the gringo's Yankees imperialist. You know, we're going to take his name, his flag, and we're going to call it FSLN. Frente Sandinista Liberacion Nacional.

[00:10:27] And they start going to the universities, getting the young people to join their cause. And that's how they basically started. One of them is Ortega. Okay. You know, that's how Ortega came in. And he was thrown in jail by Somoza. And in one of those takeovers, he was set free and went to Cuba. From Cuba, he went to, I believe, Russia, against his indoctrination and just came back.

[00:10:53] And now we have him as the new Somoza, basically. That's what he is now. Wow. And he is communist. So, as that happened in the 70s and Somoza went out, then it— 79, right. July 19th, 1979. Okay. That is 10 years minus a day from the moon landing. For some reason, I was going, wait, 79 is different than 69.

[00:11:24] He—and then the country took a hard left turn. Oh, yes. Yes. The Sandinistas were—it went crazy. Nicaragua went crazy. A lot of people wanted to really, really leave Nicaragua. My father recounts that he went to Miami on his way to Nicaragua after the revolution. And he found—he saw some of his friends at the airport. And they asked him, you know, what are you doing here? I thought you were in Washington.

[00:11:53] And my dad said, no, I'm going back to Nicaragua. He goes, don't you—don't you dare. They're going to—they're going to throw you in jail. You know, he was in the list of people. Wow. I don't know. Yeah. And why was he in the list? Do we know? Yeah, there is a story. My dad told me a story about 10 years ago.

[00:12:12] The reason why we were in D.C. back in 1978 is because my dad's friend, Enrique Bermudez, he was a general, Enrique Bermudez. He grew up with my dad. They were childhood friends. Enrique moved through the ranks in Nicaragua's Army National Guard. And he was also part of the contrast. He was one of the head of the—the military head of the contrast with Adolfo Calero.

[00:12:43] And—but in that year, 1978, he was under the Somoza regime, and he was in D.C. My dad was assigned by the Conservative Party to come and talk to him and say, we need you in Nicaragua to comment a coup against Somoza. Get him out. We need to save the National Guard. Save the National Guard. They don't want Somoza in power anymore. If we can save it, now we can probably have the military aid that we need

[00:13:12] to prevent the Sandinistas from taking power. When that meeting happened, of course, General Bermudez was not too happy because he thought, how can I betray my commander-in-chief, basically? But he said no, and their friendship basically was done. Well, you know, a couple of years later when the contrast came on, Enrique Bermudez is the head of the contrast. You know, so now he's fighting the Sandinistas.

[00:13:42] Okay. Yeah, see, and that's where the contrast started with President Reagan. Okay. And you know the whole story with the Iranian contra, you know, tobacco that happened and all that. So, yeah. So if Mr. Bermudez, if he were going back to Nicaragua, maybe we would be talking totally different now. Maybe I wouldn't be here telling this quick story. Yeah. Right.

[00:14:10] But no, then when the war was over, when the, because it was not a war to win, to take the Sandinista out. The whole reason for the contra war was to push the Sandinistas into having elections. That was the whole goal. Okay. Okay. And they were pushed into having an election and Pedro Joaquín Chamorro's wife, Violeta Chamorro, became president. That's the wife of the slain newspaper man.

[00:14:40] Okay. So it was kind of like a symbolism. Yes. Because also Ortega kept command of the, of the armed forces. So you're just having this lady in the presidency as, I don't know, as an object to say, hey, see, we have democracy now. After her term, of course, I think there was another guy who became president,

[00:15:06] but they were under the influence of Ortega and finally Ortega became president again. And with this, I would say Marxist ideology, but he, he just started becoming another, another Somoza. He's taking the country, see if it is his own, his own country. So he's repeating all over again. It's Cuba is no longer there. Russia is no longer there, but he's still controlling power. He doesn't want to give it up. Yeah.

[00:15:35] And before we started, you said that Somoza just treated the, the entire country as if it was his own land, that everything belonged to him. And did, does Ortega do the same thing or does he try to say that everything belongs to the people or what is that like? Yeah. Oh, he may say that everything belongs to the people, but no. I mean, his son, he is, I think he's, his oldest son.

[00:16:04] He's in charge of the international economy. He's signing contract with China. China is embedded in Nicaragua. Yeah. His other son, he's in charge of the telecommunications. So as you can tell, I mean, they were getting basically almost free oil from Venezuela when Maduro was, was there. That's why they were, they were able to maintain the people to a certain point happy because they're, I mean, but who runs the oil company? The Ortega family.

[00:16:32] So they were taking, so if the whole infrastructure of Nicaragua is run by, by the Ortega family, you know, so again, they're going back to the same thing that Somoza did. This is, this is my land, you know, and I'm going to put my family in charge. Right. You know, so we went from one dictator to another dictator, one backed by the U.S., the other one backed by Russia and then Cuba, but now Cuba is no longer there.

[00:16:59] And, you know, of course, Russia, the way we, the way things are going, I don't think they're giving that much aid to Nicaragua anymore. So that's why they're making deals with China. Right, exactly. Because they're trying to get the backing that they, they're no longer getting from Russia. Right. Did you have friends or family who stayed and have you talked to them about what happened from, during the transition and then also afterwards?

[00:17:27] I have my cousin who is still in Nicaragua, but I'm not going to say his name because he can be detrimental for him. I would try to talk to him about what was going on in Nicaragua and he would not answer. Because he's just like, listen, we're talking over the phone and somebody can hear what, what I'm, I'm telling you. Uh, he was never able to leave Nicaragua. You know, so he's still, he's there, he's my age, so he's retiring soon. Wow. Yeah.

[00:17:57] Oh. And then you had other family who went through Canada before they made it to America. Yes. Were they in the country? Has it changed? Yes. Okay. Yes. My, my uncle was, uh, he was in the armed forces. He was in the air force and, um, his wife, she knew some of the, uh, Sandinisa's elements. When he got, when the war was over, he was thrown in jail. He went in to speak on his behalf and he was released, which is, which is great.

[00:18:27] So he, uh, he was able to, uh, escape. They came to Miami, but the U S would not give them, uh, asylum. So they went to, uh, to Canada and they were there for maybe 10, 15 years before they came back to the, to the U S. But he was telling us, you know, the Sandinisas were in, uh, uh, they were in this vengeance, uh, spree. Um, and they were, as soon as the war was over, if they knew that you were an ex national

[00:18:54] guard, they would basically torture you and then just kill you. There was no tribunal, nothing like that. Some of them were, you know, some of them were taken in prison. Some of them were given 30 years sentences out, out, out there. Um, one story that I do know, uh, Cornelio Hook, who was the, uh, president of the, um, of the Congress, I say, Camara de Diputados.

[00:19:20] The story goes that when they went to his farm in Rivas, they literally made him dig his own grave, the Sandinistas did. Yeah. He, he dug his own grave and then they, then they just shot him right there. Yeah. So all the stories that, that we heard, it was just, um, kind of like maybe not the Camarouge, but almost close to what was going on. The, the killing and the, uh, the persecution.

[00:19:50] Well, and, and that is similar to some of the stories that we've heard during this, um, series, like what happened during China, in China or in, in the Soviet Union, there has to be, it seems like in order for communism to, to install itself, there must be a period where they're, they're purging people. Right. Purging. I mean, it's a bloody revolution.

[00:20:17] It is a, they are killing their fellow countrymen. Yeah. Well, we don't want you to stand up against us. Right. I mean, you had your, your chance. You did what you did. We don't like what you did, whether it's good or good or bad, you know, and, uh, but we're going to bring with, we're coming in with our own ideology. This is what we're going to, uh, install and you better like it. If you, if you don't, you're going to suffer. Yeah. I mean, so what kind of a freedom is that? Yeah.

[00:20:46] I mean, and that's my, my biggest fear here in, in the U S I mean, you, I, I believe it was for Castro Cortez saying, let's take all these MAGA people and send them to an induction nation school. I mean, they're saying it out, out loud. If they would take, if they, if they would take power, I mean, you, you and I are probably will be taken into the dungeons, you know, and, uh, trying to brainwash our way of thinking or purge us. Oh yeah. I'm sure.

[00:21:10] You know, so when the, and what is amazing is that they use the, the constitution to express themselves. Well, you know, I got freedom to express myself. Yeah. But you're telling me what you're going to do to me. Right. You know, or to us who think like this. Right. I mean, so it's the same thing, but they're bold now. They're just come out and Mandami coming out saying, we're going to own the, uh, what is it? The, um, the means of production.

[00:21:39] We're going to own it. That's, that's Marxism right there. And they say it out, out loud. So, because they know they're protected under the first amendment. Okay. So there is, but there is a danger going on out there. If I would feel this, this threatened, I think he should be removed from office. I mean, he's definitely threatening the American people. Well, look at what's going on in New York now.

[00:22:09] Now we see a lot of things that are very, uh, concerning. Very concerning. And just because you are elected, it doesn't mean you are able to do anything you want in America. You have to follow the, the law. You have to follow the, the things you do must be constitutional. The, the catch is for some of this, it, it goes through our court systems and it takes

[00:22:37] a long time to get through the court systems. Oh, absolutely. Or there are people who just aren't challenging it at all. And they're, they're leaving one state and going to another. And they're just like, I'm not going to. Right. And, and you don't, it's hard to blame them. I don't blame them. If I were in that, I would leave. I'd go fight it from somewhere else, but I wouldn't fight it in the middle of it because you have to be able to, to take care of yourself and your family. Absolutely. Yes.

[00:23:03] And, and when you can live in freedom, why would you choose not to? Sure. Even if you're trying to fight for other people's liberty, I want to do that from a place where I am free. In Nicaragua, you cannot, you cannot do that. We have so many people who are opposing the government. And when they find out who you are, they basically harass you and you have to leave the country.

[00:23:27] Now there is a, there's a story that I need to verify, but they say that the Sandinista or Ortega has sicarios in, in Costa Rica. There had been some political assassination in Costa Rica from the Nicaraguan government. You know, uh, there was a recent one, uh, but I still need to verify that. Right.

[00:23:52] You know, so if a country can do that in another sovereign nation, uh, I mean, it's, it's, this is just, it's just not right. No. You know, it's just not right at all. And if they can do that in Central America, which unfortunately, you know, is kind of like that. What is it that they cannot do it here? Yeah.

[00:24:15] And also if they can do that, and then we allow people who were doing that to, on behalf of the government, for instance, their, their own government to come into our country without vetting them at all. What are we allowing into our country? Are we allowing someone who's truly seeking refuge or are we allowing somebody who's coming into our country who might turn against our own country? Yeah. And we don't know if we're not vetting people. Well, that's what happened in the last four years with the Biden administration.

[00:24:45] How many of these people came in? I was watching this report on TV. You were saying, okay, so let's say if we have one million people coming into the U.S. and you have a thousand, uh, 1% foe, that's 1,000 people that can do damage. We only had how many hijackers during September 11? Less than two dozen. I think it was seven or eight. Yeah. It was, I think, less than a dozen. Yeah. It was four people on each plane.

[00:25:15] Yeah. Yeah. So imagine that. Imagine if it is 10% then. So, no, it's, it's very dangerous. It's extremely dangerous. Take a look at what happened in LA, how people went onto the streets when ICE came over. Yes. Okay. I mean, it was almost a civil, a civil war. And they were not waving the American flag. Exactly. They were waving, you know, the Mexican flag or in the Central American flags. Well, if that's how you feel, you know, I'm sorry, I'm a U.S. citizen. Go back.

[00:25:45] If you really feel strongly about bringing, bringing your flag here, I don't have a problem if you want to celebrate the independence of Central America. Hey, hooray. Hey, I'm from Central America. I'll join you. You know, but the biggest flag that has to be flown is the American flag. Yes. You know, just like when the Irish, when they celebrate the, what is it, St. Patrick's Day. St. Patrick's, yeah. You know, that's fine. That's, that's, that's a cultural thing and is welcome, you know, but we need to realize that we're all Americans.

[00:26:15] We need to assimilate what this country is, is, is given us. And I believe there's people like the DSA here in the, in the U.S., they're frustrated because they just, they don't know what to do. So what they want to do is take it away from you. If you are successful, well, then, you know, it's not fair. Well, no, this is a land of opportunities. You should go out there. You should sacrifice, work hard. And if you fail, get up and start all over, all over again.

[00:26:43] But don't just come to me yelling and, and screaming, it's not fair. It's not fair. You know, this Black Lives Matter or the DSA or communism here, socialism here, take it away from you. No, you just, you want to steal it from me. That's what, that's what this whole thing is all about. You want to take it away from me. And you take it. That's exactly right. And I think we've got, we have people in the country who are from America and they were

[00:27:13] born in America and their parents were American who are clamoring to that. And they're clamoring to it either because of indoctrination in schools or it just sounds good or the website is very alluring and very, very good to, to, to make people want to, to, oh yeah, my life is tough. You've got all the solutions. I'll follow you. Yeah. Then we also have people, it seems, who are following it, who have immigrated here from

[00:27:42] countries that are doing this already. And I'm, I just sit there and I see that. And I think, why did, didn't you come here to escape that? Why do you want to put it here in America? And that's something that is very confusing to me. Yeah, it could be, but also they can be also, um, double agents. Yeah. Okay. Calling themselves, uh, I want to be a refugee, a better life. Then they get in here and they just turn around once they have their documentation.

[00:28:12] I think, uh, Marco Rubio, he's, he's, he's right on saying that we're going to revoke your, your green card or U.S. citizenship if you are, uh, against the USA. You know, I agree with him a hundred percent. I mean, he's finally left Cuba. I mean, take a look at Cuba is the same thing with all those people who are running Cuba now. You know, they think that Cuba belongs to them, you know, and they want to, they want to stay there. I hope that they are taken out soon. I would like to see Cuba free again.

[00:28:41] That would be wonderful. It would be. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so, uh, it's, it's alarming because even though the president, he's saying there will be no communism here and no social, no social socialism here. He's going to be unfortunately at office in less than in two years. So a little bit more than, than, than two years. I think with, uh, hopefully a Marco Rubio and JD Vance, they can take the, his flag and continue the work that he started.

[00:29:11] But you know, okay. So let's say 10, 16, 20 years from now, what's going to happen then? You know, in, in Nicaragua, it took almost, uh, 25 years before the, before the Sandinistas took, took over. From the time of the assassination? From, uh, from the, from the time that they came into, uh, from the time they started the Sandinista movement. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:38] But from the, uh, from the assassination in 1978 and I, it was one year. Okay. Yeah. You know, so there has to be a catalyst. There's something, something has to make these people say, okay, I had enough. And that's what happened in Nicaragua when they killed Pedro Joaquin. That was the, the, the last bomb to go off. And that was, that, that's what changed everything. And I wonder if the people who did that, if you could talk to them a few years later or

[00:30:06] today, if they would come back and say, oh yes, it was worth it. And everything is so much better now. So I, unless I would suppose, unless they're the ones who are in power, probably things aren't much better for them. Right. Yeah. I mean, if you're in power, of course, you're going to try to protect power. Right. I mean, the useful fool who was, who was used for that, he's probably no longer here. Because remember, they, they get eliminated. You know, you did, you did your job. You're not going to like what we're going to bring in here.

[00:30:34] I'm going to take you out because then you're going to be the worst enemy of the, of the state. You know, we saw that in, uh, uh, where is it? Iraq, uh, Saddam Hussein, when he purged everybody, you know, I mean, it's, it's, it's sickening. Let me just put it like that. You know, it is really sickening. I mean, uh, I believe this country was founded on the basic freedom that we have that is given to us by God.

[00:31:00] It comes from God, from our creator, not from Ortega or, uh, Somoza. I mean, we are free people. Yes. And if, and if you want to give your freedom to another person, well, he's going to abuse you, you know, basically, uh, is in our, in our nature to, to take advantage. You know, hopefully some of us are sane enough that we don't want to do that. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so.

[00:31:27] So when you came to America, you were already a teenager, right? Or you were maybe even in your. No, I was a teenager. Okay. Yes. You, you came to America. Did you realize everything you'd be leaving behind? Were you prepared for like, how quickly did, did you find out you were going to be leaving your country and coming to America? It was the saddest day in my life. I tell you a, a story.

[00:31:53] Um, in 1978, um, when all this was happening, I had a civilian passport. My dad has had already his diplomatic passport with his diplomatic agenda. So, um, it was around the, um, around October. Yeah. October 28th. I think, I think it was, we left. I was, I was in my senior year in high school, but my job, my, so not my job.

[00:32:22] The agenda was to go back to Nicaragua and change my civilian passport to the diplomatic passport that my dad has because we had, we're under the umbrella of his assignment. So all of us needed, needed to have the same passport. So I went to Nicaragua. That was the last time I went to Nicaragua, October 1978. Um, yes. And, um, we did, uh, you know, I got my new, my new, my new passport.

[00:32:48] Um, and we had a meeting with the conservative party and they drafted a letter saying that the conservative party is requesting Somoza to step down. We don't want bloodshed in Nicaragua. And I was in that meeting with all the, uh, congressmen and deputies and all that.

[00:33:16] And they were saying, you know, once they read this letter over the radio, they're going to come after us because we are asking, we're demanding Somoza to step down. Who's going to do this? And, well, the job was done. I had my passport. We can leave Nicaragua now. So my dad said, I'll do it. You know, I'll take the, uh, I'll take the, uh, the letters to the different radio stations.

[00:33:40] And then if we can have a trip from Managua to Costa Rica that evening, we'll take the letter to, I believe it's La Nación newspaper in Costa Rica for them to publish the letter saying, you know, here, the opposition party of Nicaragua is requesting Somoza to step down to, um, to avoid bloodshed. So we went to the first radio station, you know, we presented the letter and they were

[00:34:08] just like, oh, wow, I don't think we can do this, you know, but all right. So we went to the second radio station. When we got to the third radio station, they say, oh, so it's you guys who are dropping this letter. So they'd already heard. So already the ball was out, was out there. The news was out there. So that's when we said, okay, that's it. Let's go to the airport. We went to the airport, uh, Pan Am where you should fly from, uh, I think it was Miami. El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica. They were overnight.

[00:34:38] Was it just you and your dad? Me and my dad. So we were. Somebody else was driving us. Okay. And was your mom and others? They were all here. They were already here. Okay. So we went to, uh, we fly to Costa Rica on the last flight. You know, my dad told me, sit all the way in the back of the airplane. I'll sit up front because if the national guard gets on the airplane, they're going to take me, then I'm going to take you. You know? So I was like, okay, great. You know? So we got on the airplane, we fly to Costa Rica overnight, went to the newspaper, drop off the letter.

[00:35:08] The next day is when everything hit me because now we're, we're flying back. We leave Costa Rica first thing in the morning. We fly through Nicaragua and we are on the airplane. People get off the airplane. People aren't getting into the airplane. Okay. And again, we're separated and we start taxiing out, you know, the airplane takes off. Once those engines were spooling and I'm looking at, out of the window, I told myself, this is it.

[00:35:37] This is the last time I'm going to see my country. And it's going to change. People are going to suffer. And I was just crying. And I felt very emotional. But that was it. I mean, just this land that gave me birth. I mean, I enjoyed it. Yeah. We have, he was not the greatest, but it was, I mean, if you compare with the Sandinistas, my goodness, man, you know.

[00:36:06] So most of it was bad. I mean, he, he was getting people killed. All right. But the Sandinistas were maybe three times as bad as worse. You know, so when we left, I was just like, all right, that's it. You know, and we came to the U.S. And I said, all right, a new life is going to have to start. And never look, never look back. You know, so I embraced this country with all my heart to do. Yeah.

[00:36:35] And those letters, what difference did those letters make? Nothing. Nothing? Nah. I mean, they were not going to publish it. Yeah. I mean, if you were going to, to read it and the, and the radio, they would shut you down immediately. Right. The, but at least it was getting to, the word was getting out. Oh, sure. To the, so it may be more through a whisper network than on the radio, but it was getting, getting out. Yeah.

[00:37:06] And, and then when did, when was Samosa killed? Samosa was killed in, what is it, Uruguay? It was blown up maybe a year later after he left Nicaragua. But he left in July 19th, July 18th, 1979. And the San Maris was coming in July 19th, I think it is, yeah. Okay. So it was very close.

[00:37:33] Your, your dad knew things were on the edge. You were on the, yes. The knife's edge, basically. Yeah. We knew, we knew that things were, were coming down. So you came to America and what did you think of America and the freedom in America? I was very upset at President Carter. I was. Yeah. You know, because of not just what was happening in Nicaragua, also what was happening in Iran. Yeah.

[00:38:02] You know, these two things were, were happening in Iran was bigger than Nicaragua. Nicaragua is just a tiny, tiny country. The resources that we have is not a whole lot. Iran, the biggest, you know, resource is oil. You know, so I can see that. I mean, and I, I believe President Carter was trying to be an, uh, apologetic due to the Vietnam War and what we had been doing all over the world. You know, so he was trying to appease, uh, the world.

[00:38:32] The U.S. was a good country. I mean, it is, it makes its mistakes, of course, for human beings, you know, but, um, but if you compare the good and, and the bad, I'll, I'll take the bad that comes with it. This is a great, great country, you know? So, um, so what was happening then, uh, really was not in, in the benefit of, of Nicaragua.

[00:38:56] You know, I mean, the problem was that then the Sandinistas tried to help the Salvadorans communists, you know, uh, Farahundo Martí group in El Salvador. And that's when Reagan said, that's it. We're not going to let, we're not going to let it, let it happen. Cause they were, you know, they were trying to make the domino effect. And President Reagan said, nope, you know, that's not going to happen. And he was doing everything he could to, to destroy communism. Right.

[00:39:23] Not just in the Soviet Union, which is what we often think of with him, but around the, he was trying to prevent its spread from around the world and to crush it. Right. I mean, he did. I mean, he ended the, uh, the U.S. U.S.S.R. Yes. You know, he did. Yes. Great. Yeah. Unfortunately, uh, Putin getting power. Yes. Yeah.

[00:39:44] But I, I, um, I think a lot of people don't understand that Putin was part of the KGB. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. He was, yeah, not a, still not a good guy. Oh, no. Mm-hmm. Um, so you came here and you and I have talked and you talked about living, basically living your American dream. Yes. Yes. What, what does that mean to you?

[00:40:16] Um, sometimes I ask myself, why am I that, that blessed? Well, what is it? I mean, but then again, it's just, well, because you took the opportunity, you know, the opportunity is there, the land of opportunity. And I told myself, if I am here, go for it, you know, go for it. Um, I never thought I was gonna, I was gonna make it into the major airlines.

[00:40:46] You know, I, I never thought of that, but it was just like, but it's there. Right. You know, I mean, die trying. Right. So it was, it was an amazing journey. He was, uh, we, we spent, I think it was six or seven years because we asked for a political asylum. And, um, during the Reagan years and the process was, you know, they stamp your passport.

[00:41:15] They give you an employment authorized, just like what they're doing now is, is the same process. And then they give you a court date. You have to come in, you know, present your, your evidence. So the, I think it was two years later, the, uh, the court, uh, sent us a date and we all went as a family, you know, presented our passports and, uh, the evidence that the Sandinistas, you know, basically there were, are the foes.

[00:41:40] And if we go with this passports back signed, you know, by Israel, by the Somoza regime, we're done. You know, so when we went to our court date, uh, the agent that was there said, well, the, the judge is not ready for you guys right now. We're dealing with the Iranian people. So we're going to give you another two more, two more years. We'll give you a court, a court date. So two more years went by.

[00:42:09] We signed ourselves to court. We're not ready for you guys. And he said, okay, but I'll tell you what he goes. It was, it was, it was a lady this time. He goes, you, you ladies. Get married to U.S. citizens. That's the best way to, uh, to do it. It told me the same, get married. I'm not getting married right now. Yeah. I got a career to, to go after. And then, um, President Reagan passed the amnesty law.

[00:42:34] I guess in those years they stayed there, there were like five or six million illegals in the U.S. And he was going to pass a law saying you guys get the amnesty law. And I thought to myself, well, I'm not illegal here. Right. But I'm going to, I'm going to give it a shot. So I fill up the application, send it, send it in. And six months later, they, they call me. You know, they interview me and, uh, they say, okay, here's your temporary, uh, green card.

[00:43:03] And then a year later, uh, they call me back. By that time I had moved to California to say, okay, I have to pursue my dream. I was 28, so I have to, I gotta do it. So I moved to California, uh, Long Beach. And that's when I got the call. I went back to DC and they gave me my permanent residency. Uh, you know, the funny thing about this is that, okay, so here I have the green card.

[00:43:33] And then like four or five months later, I get a letter from the department of, I think it was the DOJ or one of those agencies or, um, immigration. I think, I think it was that my political asylum application had been denied that I needed to self-deport myself, you know? And I'm just like, okay, I got this letter and I got this green card.

[00:43:57] But, so I took a picture of the, uh, of the green card, attach it to the letter, send it back to them. Yeah. Never heard back. Oh, wow. Yeah. So I'm just like, hey, I'm a U.S. resident. You know, I get on my knees and I pray God and I say, thank you. Yeah. And then five years later, I became a U.S. citizen. You know, so it was great. That is good. That's good. And you became a pilot. Yes.

[00:44:25] I, um, and I went to Long Beach to pursue that career out there. I, I held three jobs. Um, I have this tiny apartment, um, and just every, uh, every paycheck it was to pay for my flight school. Uh, then I got hired at a local air freight company in Long Beach and I started building my hours.

[00:44:53] And then I, um, we had a contract in Phoenix. I moved to Phoenix to manage the contract. I would, with my wife and two kids by then. Uh, then I was, uh, picked up by, uh, America West. And that's how my airline career, my airline career started. That's wonderful. Oh, I think it's, it's wonderful. Yeah.

[00:45:16] You know, so I, and when I tried to talk to young people, I tell them, you know what, if a person like me can do it, what's holding you back? And I, I tried to mentor many kids, you know, young, young, young kids. Uh, but it's, it's, I don't know what, what's going on out there. Um, I feel that the youth in the U S it's like having all this power boats going all over the river with no rudder.

[00:45:45] So they have no idea where they're going. I mean, they're going fast. They want to, yeah, I don't, I don't blame them. You know what I mean? You finish college or trade school. You want to have a house, the car and all this, but Hey, it takes time. You know, I held three jobs. Right. I sacrifice. Instead of going to the bar with my cousins, I stayed home. You know, it's the sacrifice to say, Hey, this is the goal. Yeah.

[00:46:11] The there's something I, I try very hard to be careful because I don't want to be, I don't want to be an insulting to any group of, of people. So, um, I probably am sometimes, you know, I, I don't mean to be, but, um, the younger

[00:46:37] people, I think somewhere along the way, they haven't, someone hasn't told them how hard it is to achieve things. Like they look at their parents and they, and we keep hearing these statistics. Oh, well, they're not getting their houses as young and there's an affordability issue. And I, I'm not dismissing that things are, are difficult for them.

[00:47:02] Um, I am thinking that I, I, I had a job, my, I got my career job out of college, but with my career job out of college for my first two jobs, I was working anywhere from 80 to a hundred hours a week. Every single week is a salaried employee. So my first, my first job was I earned $30,000 a year. So that was like $15 an hour for 40 hours a week.

[00:47:31] But if you're working 80 hours a week, it's really like seven 50 a week. You're not making a lot of money per hour, but you were putting in the time, doing everything that you could so that you could get a promotion and get a bonus and, and get a raise and then be positioned and have enough knowledge that you could go get another job. And, and usually when you change companies, you could get a bump in pay, like a significant bump and, and keep doing the same thing.

[00:48:00] Um, or you're an entrepreneur and you start your own company and you go and you, you work and you work and you work. It isn't, it wasn't easy. It isn't easy. And then I went bankrupt. I, my, my, um, ex-husband and I, his company failed. He was an entrepreneur. He had problems with it. The company failed and we had to go clean our neighbor's homes. I had a college degree. He had a college degree.

[00:48:27] We had other skills, but at that point in our life, the one thing we could quickly do to earn money was to clean other people's homes with the equipment we had and the vacuum cleaner we owned. And we did it. And it wasn't too good for us. It wasn't fun, but we did it and we started over. And I, um, I, and then I, I pushed back on some people and I'm like, yeah, well, I've

[00:48:56] had to sort of like in my adult life, after I had a career and a house and children, I had to go back to cleaning my neighbor's homes and, and doing whatever it took just to provide for my family. And, and someone said, yeah, but everyone doesn't have to do that. Nobody wants to hear how hard it was for you. Yeah. Like, but you need to hear how hard it, like they need to understand that life isn't always easy. Right.

[00:49:22] But when you work really hard, you can be rewarded for your hard work in America. Yeah. Not everywhere in the world. No. But certainly in America, you have the opportunity to do that. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I'll tell you a quick story. When my cousin, uh, left the Sandinistas, you know, and came to the U S with his kids, his kids were anti-American. They hated this country.

[00:49:48] And I sat down with them one day and I said, listen, this is the only country in the whole world that you can make money with trash. And they looked at me and goes, what do you mean? And he goes, just start collecting bottles, five cents each, just collect and you're making money. Just crush them, put them into this plastic bag. When you have, I don't know, 20, 30, 40 bags, go to the recycling place. You're going to get your, your money.

[00:50:18] Show me that in Nicaragua. Can you, can you, can you do that? You know, and they started doing it and say, you want, you want to buy your video game, your, your, uh, Nintendo start collecting trash. I start collecting, uh, aluminum cans, you know, and now to today, they're both have, uh, small businesses here in, in the U S. So yes, I agree with you a hundred percent. I mean, you know, uh, we, uh, from one day to the other, we had nothing.

[00:50:48] All that my dad worked for in Nicaragua. He had, I think it was four or five properties gone. Not because the government took over, but you know, I mean, if you have mortgages, the bank will take over, but you lose hair, you lose everything. Okay. You lose everything. And here we are. I had to go and, uh, flip burgers at, uh, the burger joint across the street from where we were living. Uh, then I started working as a, as a messenger. Then I became a teller at a bank. And then I said, Hey, you know what?

[00:51:16] I got to pursue my aviation career. Right. I moved to Long Beach, you know, with my aunt with only $350. And just give me a, uh, a little corner. I sleep there. I went to look for a, for a job. I got myself my first job, pay her rent. Then I got my second job. Then I got my third, my third job, just saving every single money. And I had to make a choice. I think it was, uh, $30 an hour for flight time each hour. Okay.

[00:51:46] And he can go to, let's say on a Friday night, go to the bar, spend $20 and beer and plane pool. I'm not going out. Yeah. I need an extra $10. That's one hour of flight time. You know, because, and then in the long run, it begins to add up 10 hours, 50 hours, a hundred hours. You know, the airlines, the first cargo job I needed to 1100 hours. Well, I needed to get to that, to that point, you know, so it was either play pool with my

[00:52:15] cousin or save the money in one hour of flight time. Right. You know, one hour of flight time, it can, it can be gone in one, the money's gone in one hour. Right. You know, so that's the sacrifice. Yes. You know, in this, in this little apartment, I just had one mattress on the floor, not even a couch, maybe an AM radio. My first Christmas out of the family. I went to the pick and save. I got me a $1 Christmas, Christmas tree.

[00:52:44] Hey, Merry Christmas, man. All right. But you know what? He was, would I do it all over again? Absolutely. Yeah. Would I change anything? Hell no. No. He was the best experience. And, and I'm just like, just do it. Right. The rewards are amazing. I mean, Elon, Elon came with what? $2,000, I believe. From South Africa. You know, a trillionaire. I mean, he's my, he's my hero.

[00:53:09] His mom helped him, like was sitting there or I, I've read the biography. I don't remember everything that his mother did, but she was organizing papers for him and, and not like helping him, giving him a whole bunch of money, just like rolling up her sleeves and doing whatever she could to help him with his business. And look at what he's created. Bill, Bill Gates started in his parents' garage.

[00:53:36] I, it's just, you just have to decide you're going to do it. And, and you may risk everything and you may still not, you may not accomplish what you set out to accomplish. But I guarantee you that if you try, you're going to be better off than where you are. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And I look at the youth, for example, when they were protesting with the DSA, you know,

[00:54:05] they're out there yelling and, and screaming and all that. I had a similar deal with one of my nephews who went to college. He presented me a question and I gave him my honest answer and he didn't like it. You know, he just started yelling and screaming at me. And I was like, why? You asked me a question. This is my answer, not what you want to hear. I mean, not agree with your, with your ideology. And that's kind of dawn on me, you know, what's going on at the universities.

[00:54:35] We have to do away with the, um, what do you call it? Oh, geez. I'm having a little fog right now. Tenure? Tenure? Yeah, tenure. Tenure. We have to do away with that. We do because now they, they feel empowered. They cannot touch me. Now, I mean, it's like they blame us before, oh, you cannot be above the law. Well, you're being above the law. You're taking advantage.

[00:55:04] You're indoctrinating the youth. And I believe that's what's going on out there. Well, I think tenure is absolutely something that needs to be looked at. And also, um, the federal government took over the student loan process. So anyone can get a loan. You don't, there's really no qualifying. Absolutely. And of course, when you're 18, you have no credit.

[00:55:26] So you're giving, they're giving the money away, but they're doing so in a way that they're not, people don't understand that that loan is a loan. Right. Because they haven't been taught what a loan is throughout all of the rest of the school. There's no personal finance being taught at all. So they don't understand it's a loan and that there's interest and that they're going to owe money back on it. And they have this money and they get into the school and then the school doesn't care whether you get a job or not afterwards.

[00:55:56] It doesn't matter to them. Whether you graduate or not, not a big deal. Whether you, you have a job or not, not a big deal. They've gotten the money through, from the federal government through you with your loan. Right. And you're on the hook for the loan. They get the money, they benefit. We, there, and the Trump administration is making changes on this. There need to be changes. Like if a school can't make sure that you've got a degree that you can go get a job with, they should be held accountable for that. Absolutely.

[00:56:25] If USA and US News World Report ranks all the colleges, the top thing should be they get a good paying job, not whatever else they're measuring the school by. Right, the school. Yeah. Yeah. I was, again, when I talked to the young kids, I asked them, when you finish high school, how much debt did you have? And he said, I don't have any debt. Exactly.

[00:56:54] And here you are applying to go to the universities and you're going to spend $40,000, $80,000, $100,000 in the university. They're going to teach you a theory. That's it. That's all you're going to do. You're going to read papers. You're going to write papers. You're going to read books. You're going to do all these things, party and enjoy your life. And then when you walk away, you walk away with a piece of paper.

[00:57:20] Now you are in the hole, $80,000, $120,000 of dollars. And now you think, okay, I'm a college graduate. You know, I have a higher education. All right. You go look for a job. And what happens is, let's say you graduated with a degree on X. You go look for a job that will do X. There are none. Or if there is one, you need to have experience.

[00:57:50] Well, you don't. But now you know that six months later, you're going to start repaying that student loan. So you get yourself a job doing Y. Now you get yourself, now you say, hey, I'm making $30,000, $40,000 a year. Okay, great. Hey, hooray. But it's not in your field. Right. Now it's in a different field that requires a college degree. Okay. So now you're like, now I had to pay rent, pay the car, pay the house, pay the student loan. Now you say, I need to make more money.

[00:58:20] So you look for another job. But now you have experience doing Y. So you look for another job that is related to Y. And what happens is you end up, what is called chasing a paycheck. Yeah. You're not chasing your career. Right. And then you spend 30, 40 years in the workforce. And then you look back and you go, but this is not what I wanted to do. So then those organizations saying, well, when you retire, you can follow your dream.

[00:58:49] I'm just like, really? Is that what this thing is all? It's all about? No. If you wanted to do X, then follow X. Do what you wanted to do. That's right. You know. But the whole point is you came out with $100,000 in debt. Instead of taking advantage of the city college, do your two years and then do the remaining two years at a university.

[00:59:17] Believe me, they don't care where you graduated from. In the airline industry, you can have a degree from, let's say, MIT in the aerospace engineering. You can have this guy with a basket weaving degree. They don't care. Right. What they care is, do you know how to fly an airplane? Right. That's it. You know, so sometimes it makes no sense. Yeah. You know, so go to the vocational school. And go to the local school.

[00:59:45] And when you were just saying that about $80,000 to $100,000, which is absolutely right. That's where they're coming out of college in debt with. That's a house. That's a house. Exactly. Or it used to be a house. For the down payment. Yeah. It's certainly a down payment on a house. And it is. So it's a. They don't have to. There are other options. Oh, my goodness. You go to. They still are going to wind up in five or six years doing what they want to do. You can go to trade school. Yeah.

[01:00:15] And then go to college part time. And get your degree. But now you're in the workforce. Now you're making money. Instead of going to college and you come out and you're in the hole. Yes. You're in the hole for probably the rest of your life. Because at what? Eight to ten percentage interest. And I believe it resets it. Every time you send a payment, you never end up paying it. You know? So it is in that sense.

[01:00:43] But that's up to the student. That's up to the young people who are coming out. Right. Don't think the college is the answer. It's nice to have a college degree. But there's Google University. Believe it or not. You know, now with Chad GPT and AI or super intelligence as the president is calling it. It's calling it now. You know, you can educate yourself. I mean. Charlie Kirk. A great example. Yes.

[01:01:13] The guy was amazingly smart. Yes. You know, he should be the idol of every young man. To say, if he did it like that. I can do it too. Yes. And when Larry Arnn spoke at Charlie. The president of Hillsdale College spoke at Charlie's funeral or memorial service, he said that he told Charlie you are going to have to suffer.

[01:01:43] And what he meant by that was not being assassinated. Right. What he meant was that you've got to go sit down and study and learn. You don't have to go to college, but you've got to learn. And Charlie went through and took the classes on Hillsdale online and learned and made sure he was learning. And because he did that, he was able to talk to all of those people. Exactly. So much of what he said.

[01:02:10] If you go take the classes from Hillsdale, you're like, oh, that's where he was learning it all. Sure. Like it sounds like what the professor is just saying on the screen. But, and I'm not discounting at all Charlie's abilities. No, no, no. My point is that if he hadn't learned, he wouldn't have been able to communicate that to people. He had to spend the time doing that. And you suffered in your way, like making the sacrifices for the longer term. Absolutely. For the longer term goal.

[01:02:40] And here in America, we have the ability to do that. It's still. In Nicaragua. No. There was no. Not with the Sandinistas. No. You know, in Russia, not with Putin. No. In Cuba, there's no way. You know, in all of this socialistic communist country. Now, they say, well, America is a socialist country. Yes, there's a certain point. You know, there is. Way too much government programs. Right. Exactly. Yeah.

[01:03:10] Because the government is supposed to be doing two things. Yes. Commerce and national security. That's it. Everything else is just given out maybe for votes or something like that. You know, but no, if you are on Section 8, finish up school. Do something. You know, this is the greatest, greatest nation. And it drives me nuts because from seeing how Nicaragua has suffered, seeing a lot of people

[01:03:36] that could have done a great career or something, the country is just oppressing everybody. Yeah. You know, the same thing in Cuba. Take a look how beautiful Cuba is. All those are the architecture and all that. But it's like, really, is that how you want to keep people down like that? Yeah. I mean, it's just amazing. You know, so. Well, and Cuba, it's an island with beaches. Right. Yeah. It could be a tourist.

[01:04:06] Like, there's so much that it could be. You have to let people. Right. Be free in order for that to happen. To happen. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So it's really amazing. But I'm hoping that in the next two years, Cuba is going to be free. Nicaragua is going to be free or a transitional government. Get the Sandinistas or the Ortegistas out. You know, that's what I call them now. Hopefully, Russia may change too.

[01:04:34] I mean, I believe that's what President Trump wants. He doesn't want wars. You know, right now we may have this conflict and Iran. But I read this. I read this somewhere. It says fuel prices can come down. When communism gets in, you cannot get rid of it. And so don't be foolish by, oh, everything is so expensive. Prices can come down. Yes. But what's happening here with all this crazy mentality out there, once it gets in there,

[01:05:04] it's a terminal cancer. It really is. And it's very hard to get rid of it. It is very hard to get rid of it. And people in this series who we've been interacting with over the last couple of days, you all know how hard it is to get rid of it. Because once it gets its tentacles in, it just spreads. Right. Spreads. Yeah. And oppresses. Oh, for sure.

[01:05:32] I don't know what's the joy on oppressing people. Seriously. I mean, what is it? I mean, what are you gaining from it? But, you know. I think that it is power. No, of course. It's just power. The people who are able to do that like power more than they care about liberty. Mm-hmm. And they don't really care about safety and security for people. No. Yeah. Because oppressing somebody is not keeping them safe. No.

[01:06:02] Exactly. Yeah. So that's my story. Very good. Well, thank you so much for joining me. And thanks for being part of this series and for sharing your story. I really appreciate it. No, no. I really, I thank you very, very much. I just hope that, I just hope that someone will at least change one person. And that person can change another person. You know, just send a message out there. You know what they say? Click the like.

[01:06:30] And hopefully somebody else is going to listen to this. The more we can spread this, the better. And you're doing an awesome job spreading this. I do appreciate this. Thank you. Thank you very, very much for showing the American people or the world, you know, what communism is. And hopefully we can put a stop to it. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Jenny. That was Captain Onofre Gutierrez. He is in our panel discussion on surviving communism.

[01:07:00] The first panel episode is where communist survivors tell you what it was actually like day to day in the country they grew up in. They talk about the first time they understood the government was inside their home, what there was to eat and what happened when you got sick. Watch that episode next if you haven't seen it. And if this series and the Jenny Beth show is worth your time, please be sure to hit like and subscribe.

[01:07:25] It's how these conversations will reach more people so we can get the word out and help save liberty in America. I'm Jenny Beth Martin, and this is Surviving Communism. If you enjoyed today's conversation, go ahead and hit like and subscribe. It really helps us reach more people who care about liberty and the Constitution. You can find this and other episodes at JennyBethShow.com, as well as Facebook, YouTube, Rumble, Instagram, X, and your favorite podcast platform.

[01:07:54] The Jenny Beth Show is hosted by Jenny Beth Martin. The Jenny Beth Show is a production of Tea Party Patriots Action. For more information, visit TeaPartyPatriots.org.