Deregulation & Economic Freedom: A New Path for States | Noah Wall, State Leadership Initiative

[00:00:00] These red states have an incredible moment right now. They have constituents who are expecting dramatic action, and then you have state legislators that are either going to live up to the moment, or they are going to need to find another line of work. Keeping our Republic is on the line, and it requires patriots with great passion, dedication, and eternal vigilance to preserve our freedoms.

[00:00:27] Jenny Beth Martin is the co-founder of Tea Party Patriots. She is an author, a filmmaker, and one of Time Magazine's most influential people in the world. But the title she is most proud of is mom to her boy-girl twins. She has been at the forefront, fighting to protect America's core principles for more than a decade. Welcome to The Jenny Beth Show.

[00:00:51] Today, I'm joined by Noah Wall, who is a longtime friend and has begun the State Leadership Initiative. Noah, it's brand new. I don't even know the name of it yet. Yeah, no, we're excited. We are just launching this month, and we are just absolutely thrilled to be hopping in and getting involved. We are in such an incredible time in this country in our political moment, and we think that there's so many opportunities to continue the fight that Trump is taking at the federal level in the states.

[00:01:20] And we have so many friends at American Legislative Exchange Council, at state policy network organizations around the country that have transformed red states into incredibly business-friendly environments.

[00:01:35] They've taken, they've done pretty tremendous reforms, but we just think that in this moment we can go further. And so it's our goal and our mission as an organization to hop in the fight and to give them the networks and support that they need to actually bring the public policy up to the level that I think the constituents around this country, the grassroots of America expect.

[00:02:03] And that's what we're just, we're thrilled to get involved because the types of changes we're going, we're seeing the federal government. I mean, we've been fighting for this for 15, 20 years, and we're actually starting to see this progress. We can't let this go to waste at the state level. We need to make sure that we're complementing the reforms that President Trump's doing and actually taking it one step further and ensuring that we're building out lasting reforms in the states. And that's why we started this project. And that actually will help protect Trump's legacy. Absolutely.

[00:02:33] Maybe not. Protect might be the wrong word because I'm not out. I don't think any of us are out to protect his legacy, but I think it helps build his legacy. And when I say we're not out to protect it, I don't mean we're out to harm it. Yeah. But like, I'm not motivated, oh, I need to protect his legacy. I'm motivated by making sure that the things he promised actually get accomplished and that will build his legacy. And if we can codify it, that's what must happen.

[00:03:00] That's exactly right. I mean, Trump opened up his inauguration speech by saying that the golden age of America starts now. And for that to be meaningful and lasting, we have to have every level of governance in the United States working together to make that a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[00:03:19] And, you know, there's so many instances where red states in particular, which we'll be focused on at State Leadership Initiative, we're going to be focused on working to make sure that these red states are governing in a way that fits the vision of the founding fathers, fit the vision of what we can really do in this moment.

[00:03:43] And so I'll give you a couple examples. So when you think of regulations, you mostly think of the federal government. But most people don't realize that states have a completely parallel system of regulations that, you know, that oversee everything from building codes to occupational licensing to really every aspect of the economy that takes place at the state and local level. And you take a state like Texas, it has about 300,000 state regulations.

[00:04:14] You look at a state like Illinois, you know, it's a blue state, you expect that to be heavily regulated, it has almost the exact same number of regulations as the state of Texas, the red state of Texas, exactly. I mean, so California is famously the most regulated state in the country. But if you look at states like Kansas, you look at states like Louisiana, they have almost identical numbers of regulations as their counterparts of Maryland and Connecticut.

[00:04:42] And so, you know, we need to, I think that for the future of this country, we actually have to take our leadership in red states to the next level. And that is dramatically increasing the economic freedom that our people, that our citizens have. And I think that'll, that'll, that'll inspire a transformative wave of deregulation, a transformative wave of freedom in this country.

[00:05:08] And to me, I think that there is nothing more inspiring. It's not about the number of regulations. It's about the freedom that that will actually give people. If you want to go start a business, you should just go be able to do it. I mean, like literally just go be able to do it. Don't go get a license. Don't go get permission. Just be able to do it. And that's, I mean, that's the type of freedom that I think will allow for the next wave of entrepreneurs in this country to be able to go out and make amazing things.

[00:05:37] I mean, we're, we're going to be colonizing Mars in 10 years. I mean, you know, we need to be inspiring people with what's actually possible. And I think that, I think that we've had this stagnation over the last 20 years in the economy. We've done great things in tech, but everywhere else has stagnated. You know, it's, you can. Or declined. I mean, so you can go online and see, and Elon's been sharing all this on X.

[00:06:00] You know, China will, there's these videos of China building a railway station in nine hours. You can just watch the time lapse of an entire railway station being built on their high speed rail network start to finish in nine hours. And then you look at the United States and it takes two years to pave a road. And it's, there's no reason that the future can't be fast. And that's what we think that, we think that it's completely possible here in America. And we should be leading that.

[00:06:30] We shouldn't be trailing China or any other country. We should be leading that. We absolutely should. So when, before we began recording, you were talking about how Idaho has actually done some really good things when it comes to simplifying regulations. Absolutely. So like, you know, this idea of like, let's go ahead and deregulate. It's not completely new.

[00:06:53] There's a, there's actually completely, you know, demonstrated model, which is what Idaho has done, where they have either eliminated or simplified 95% of their state regulations to the point where I mentioned Texas has about 300,000 state regulations. The state of Idaho, and yes, it's a smaller state, but it's also a booming economy, has fewer than 15,000. And they're continuing to get that number down.

[00:07:18] And, you know, and I think that just really goes to show it doesn't mean that the state is, you know, you know, a free for all. You know, it doesn't mean that it's going to descend into chaos. Yes, Americans actually spent most of their history completely deregulated and the country was far more dynamic when that was the case.

[00:07:38] So it's just about returning to the values that we all believe in, in our, in our culture, which is of individual responsibility, following the, you know, the, the, the law and norms of our society and trusting people to just go ahead and do that when they're going ahead and developing their businesses. And so, you know, we think that that's incredibly important. You know, there's a number of other areas that we're going to be tackling as well.

[00:08:03] So for the last couple of years, I've worked at a wonderful organization called the State Financial Officers Foundation. And we worked with just amazing state treasurers and auditors doing incredible work trying to fight back against the politicization of state finance.

[00:08:18] Well, there, you know, our financial industry is incredibly regulated, both domestically, but also that is in effect run by the Europeans and how the European pension funds are the biggest clients of BlackRock, Vanguard, State Street.

[00:08:41] And about half the reason that BlackRock and all of those guys adopted ESG were because of rules that were adopted by the European regulators. And so we think that there's a number of things that we can do on the state level to really push these, these financial institutions to depoliticize here in the United States. If they need to do what they need to do over in Europe, you know, to compete for business over there, I think that's a separate matter.

[00:09:08] But really, from our perspective, we need to make sure that state dollars are not politicized. And so we think there's a number of things states can do to to further get their state finances sort of decoupled from this ESG paradigm that that despite what BlackRock says, they still abide by.

[00:09:27] And so what that means is, you know, opening things up for investment in domestic energy is going to be huge to ensure that Trump's agenda gets actually implemented. You know, the state of Alaska can't find banks to partner on a number of their energy products, energy projects in the state because of European regulations that these that these banks are party to.

[00:09:53] And so trying to use state leverage to push for that depolitization, I think, is gonna be incredibly important. And so we think that states sort of taking a leadership stand of like, hey, we're going to prioritize the economy of our state and ensure that we actually, you know, are pushing back against. Again, it's not even the federal government. It's foreign governments that are manipulating businesses in terms of how they sort of oversee state finance.

[00:10:20] So that's a huge issue that we're going to try and engage in as well. So take a step back, you know, because we talk about ESG and you, especially after having done this for several years, you're thinking about ESG. Explain to people who maybe forgot what it is or haven't heard it or just heard the letters. So ESG is environment or environmental, social and governance factors.

[00:10:43] And it is a buzzword that has captured the finance and and sort of global economic sphere over the last 10 to 15 years. It really popped up sort of around when Obama became president following the financial crisis. And it was it was simultaneously, I think, two separate things.

[00:11:08] On the one side, it was a feel good exercise to try and make people think that, you know, multinational corporations were being good to the environment and good to people. And it was like this branding exercise to make them feel righteous about themselves.

[00:11:25] But on the the actual impact that ESG had was engaging in a systematic effort to undermine fossil fuels as an as a source of energy, despite not having any reliable alternative to them. So it was this pie in the sky idea that had incredibly damaging consequences. It is it was ESG was sort of the broader framework of DEI.

[00:11:54] So the S in ESG is really what DEI is all about. And so they engaged in systemic racial discrimination against people, not just in the United States, but around the world. You know, companies like Amazon in like Brazil had black only positions that that they had.

[00:12:16] So like these were like global efforts that they had huge consequences here in the United States, but they actually took it a step further in the rest of the world to implement racial discrimination quotas. So ESG was an incredibly destructive concept and framework that had tremendous real world consequences. I mean, ESG caused the complete destruction of the German auto industry, for example.

[00:12:46] Like, you know, they all committed to by 2025, they weren't going to be making any new any new gasoline model cars. And so they basically dismantled their entire you know, there's this entire valley in Germany that produces like all of the V6 and V8 engines and they completely shut it down. And so, you know, they're trying to start some of the backup. Now, they realize that electric cars aren't going to be the replacement that they thought they were.

[00:13:14] But, you know, I mean, it's caused not just the United States, but globally, just a massive destruction, a wake of destruction in its path. So. So, yeah. So that's ESG. And then those policies and regulations from the European Union affected BlackRock and other investors because they had to comply with that. So then it wound up shaping American American policy. Yeah.

[00:13:40] And businesses and how they operate rather than the way they should be operating. You're absolutely right. It's really weird to think like. So in the United States, ESG was never really the law of the land. In fact, ESG, like certain aspects of ESG are explicitly illegal here in the United States. But nevertheless, it was it was implemented under the guise of norms that were adopted in Europe. And so in in it was actually very interesting ESG investing.

[00:14:09] So that's the concept of ESG applied to finance, which is we're going to take, you know, so it started actually in South Africa was the first country that did it. And then followed shortly thereafter by Britain, where they said we are going to only invest in companies that are explicitly adopting these initiatives to engage in racial discrimination, engage in divestment from fossil fuels.

[00:14:38] You know, investing in green energy projects, investing in things like, you know, their efforts to get rid of certain aspects of the agriculture industry that they think caused too much methane. So thankfully, we got rid of, you know, we sort of started pushing back against ESG when we did because their next effort that was supposed to go into place this year and next year was essentially getting rid of all the cows in the world was their sort of next step.

[00:15:06] And so thankfully, we came in when we did. But but that was you know, that was a huge part of it, too, was regulation of the agriculture industry that led to riots and huge economic upheaval actually going on late last year in Britain, Ireland and other places like the Netherlands, where they were effectively shutting down the farming industry in Europe. But so which is so dangerous. A country needs to be able to produce its own food. It's incredibly like you have.

[00:15:36] To have water and food. It's so bad. Air. These are pretty basic things. And when you don't have that, you can become very susceptible from a national security standpoint and just from a survival standpoint. It's crazy that a country would do this to itself. It's absolutely insane. But it's you know, it was it was very much an entire mindset.

[00:15:57] And the way that it was able to sustain itself into sort of more from, you know, the Anglosphere to Europe to the United States was really because all of these governments. So European governments all have these massive pension funds like Norway has the one of the largest pension funds in the world is over a trillion dollars of assets.

[00:16:23] And so they said, if you want to do business with us, you know, so if you're BlackRock, you want to do business with us. You have to only give out loans adopting ESG criteria. And so BlackRock says, OK, we'll do that. And so but they don't just do that with Norway's money. They do that with everyone else's money. And so at the State Financial Officers Foundation, we started saying, hey, you know, we're Oklahoma. Our biggest industry is, you know, the fossil fuel industry.

[00:16:51] We're not OK with you actively trying to undermine our state's industry in your entire investment strategy. And so we've had some success with that. But ultimately, you know, these companies are in a bind because Europe has not backed off of this at all. They have not had this Donald Trump epiphany that we've all had here in the United States. So it's yet to be determined how that's going to be.

[00:17:18] But if states are quite forceful, bring this back to the states really quick. If they stand up and say, actually, we aren't going to be involved in that. And in red state pensions, permanent funds and other pools of capital represent about three trillion dollars of investment. So, I mean, we're talking about massive sums of money.

[00:17:37] And so if you're aggressive about how you use that and, you know, we're very, you know, we need to be mindful of the fact we're not trying to dictate, you know, investment strategy for companies. What we're trying to say is you can't adopt a particular brand of investment strategy that is designed to undermine the fundamental industries of the United States or engage in systemic discrimination, etc.

[00:18:05] You know, like we have we have fundamental rules and values in the United States, and those are to be continued into our investment practices. And so so that means taking a strong stance. That means kind of furthering the state legislative initiatives that, you know, a number of outstanding groups have done, like Heritage Action and a number of other groups have just done tremendous jobs with.

[00:18:31] But really what we need to do is is is amp this up. These red states have an incredible moment right now, you know, like we they have constituents who are expecting dramatic action. And then you have state legislators that are either going to live up to the moment or they are going to need to find another line of work.

[00:18:54] I mean, you just saw in Texas how the Democrat coalition worked together with moderate Republicans to elect the Texas House speaker. I mean, what a rejection of the 2024 elections. I mean, it's absolutely crazy. I mean, in your state in Georgia, they just, you know, removed one of your state senators from the floor for exposing corruption.

[00:19:21] I mean, it's just absolutely, absolutely crazy what we're seeing in these states. And I mean, another example, you know, so the Mississippi State Auditor, which is actually a very powerful office. It's one of the larger auditor offices in the country, has exposed tremendous amount of corruption in the state of Mississippi. And the state legislature is currently advancing a bill to gut the auditor's office because they're tired of him exposing corruption.

[00:19:50] And, you know, it's a shout out to Shad White. He's doing tremendous work. But, you know, we got to make sure that, you know, we actually go on the path of accountability and transparency and not kind of go backwards while the federal government's doing tremendous work. So, I mean, that really takes, I think, you have to set out a vision for, like, this is possible. Like, what Donald Trump is doing at the federal government needs to be carried on to the states.

[00:20:19] And it can't, we can't just have another four years of twiddling our thumbs. We need to actually come in and be systematic about it. And so that's what we're really excited about engaging on. So what are the specific areas you're going to be focusing on? Yeah. So we're going to have, you know, so we'll ultimately have a legislative sort of a set of policies that we think states should do. I think that there is a huge amount of opportunity for states to get started right away in a couple of really specific areas.

[00:20:48] So one of the things that we're going to start doing, most states have boards and commissions that oversee various government, you know, projects. Over the last couple of years, I've worked a tremendous amount with the boards of directors of pension funds. So these are the individuals that can make the decision to say, hey, we're going to go ahead and divest from BlackRock. And so these are five or six people. These are offices that literally no one's ever heard of.

[00:21:17] No one can name their pension fund board members in their state, no matter how politically active you are. I mean, I live in Virginia and I only know a couple of them. So, you know, so those are incredibly influential positions that are usually afterthoughts when the appointments are made. We need to make an effort to make those positions held by strong individuals who understand the issues and understand how those positions can actually, you know, can actually govern.

[00:21:47] I think that you have a tremendous opportunity as well. So, you know, I keep using Texas as an example because I think it's such a great opportunity for reform. So Texas every year gives out like 20 to 30 billion dollars a year in corporate welfare. Most people don't realize that, but they give out just tens of like literally multiples of billions every year. And they give it to companies, you know, like Apple gets 50 million dollars every year.

[00:22:14] Apple to to to over to to have this, you know, effectively a warehouse in the state of Texas. You know, it's like a distribution facility for Apple. But we need to go in and actually stop giving money to companies that are antithetical to the values of the state of Texas. I think we should eliminate all corporate welfare. But let's stop.

[00:22:38] Let's stop giving money to companies like Apple that are willfully undermining the values and cultures of the state of Texas. Like, let's start there and work all the way down. Let's get rid of all of it. But I think there's some really low hanging fruit. You know, these companies are coming to Texas right now because Texas is booming. We don't need to bribe them to do it. Yeah. And that happens in it's happening in Georgia as well. Like they will give tax cuts to new companies coming in to try to incentivize them to come to Georgia.

[00:23:08] They could come to Georgia and they'd still make loads of money. They don't need they don't need that. But how is that fair to all the other businesses and the entrepreneurs who've been there forever who aren't getting the same kind of tax tax breaks? It's it's absolutely horrible. You're absolutely right. I mean, it goes down to, you know. And I'm for tax cuts, but let's do it across the board. Exactly. No, no. I think that you the goal should be to make these red states.

[00:23:36] And this is totally possible because blue states are actually going in the opposite direction. They're going to be increasing their taxes further. They're going to be regulating further. They've shown zero sign that they're backtracking. So it makes it really easy for red states to just increase the level of competitiveness by continuing to reduce their taxes, making it incredibly easy to conduct business. State of Texas gives out a quarter billion dollars a year in film subsidies.

[00:24:03] I mean, like it just it drives me nuts. And I think there's a lot of just interesting ways. But in the state of Texas, those are all overseen by boards and commissions. And so I think that there's a really great opportunity to get incredibly credible people appointed to these boards. You can start asking the right questions of why are we giving this money to these people? And then you take those gains that we get from there and you turn into legislative wins.

[00:24:32] You know, so legislative wins take some time. But I think there's some some quick wins that we can get on the front end that that get the governors of these states tremendous amount of credit for starting to push back against the current model. And I think it also and I think that just builds momentum and you build a coalition while you're doing that of people who are invested in these types of reforms. And so I'm a big believer in coalitions.

[00:24:58] And so, you know, what we're going to be doing is trying to build up networks of business leaders who want the best thing possible for their state, that want to have this type of economic advantage that that will make their state dominant in whatever industries that they're competitive in. So I think there's a huge amount of opportunities for all of these red states.

[00:25:20] And then the last example I'll give that's sort of unique to the moment we're in right now, the state of Delaware absolutely stepped in it last year with their ruling against Elon Musk. And so companies are now starting to say, OK, well, maybe we're going to relocate from Delaware. You know, I think we just saw it like Dropbox is moving out of Delaware and a number of other businesses. Red states, given the changes that the Securities and Exchange Commission are actually an opportunity to reform their corporate governance statutes to be better than Delaware.

[00:25:51] And so they can start guiding these companies that are already looking at leaving Delaware into their states by taking quick action on a program that, you know, reforms your state governance models. And there's a lot of ways that we can do that because these corporate governance laws are governed at the state level. So there's a tremendous amount of things that we can quickly do that will that are going to help reshape sort of how corporate governance is done in the United States.

[00:26:21] And that, you know, it sounds kind of boring, but basically we're eating Delaware's lunch and we can do that. And like, let's make let's make the state of Texas. Let's make Wyoming. Let's make, you know, let's make all of these red states the home of corporate America. Let's get it away from Wall Street and Delaware. Let's get it into Florida, Texas and some of these other places. Let's make that happen. I think that those are exciting things to do, but I guess maybe I'm just a geek with you.

[00:26:46] You know, it's but it's fun because it it creates an opportunity and it's going to make America a better place. And that's what we're in it for. I mean, this is about I think that I think that we are on the precipice of a golden age in this country. And I think that I think that this 2024 election isn't going to just be a flash in the pan. And then, you know, we move on. I think this is a turn in the road.

[00:27:10] I think that I think, you know, I think it's a sign from God that we need to actually be, you know, we need to do the types of reforms that that we've been talking about for decades. We need to make those happen. And now's the time. And I don't think there could possibly be a better time to make it happen. And if we don't get it right right now, we may never have the time. I don't think we will.

[00:27:34] I think that if the American people, I think if we squander this opportunity, I don't think the American people will ever forgive us. No. Nor should they. No. Nor should they. I think that you're exactly right. It can't be like Obamacare repeal. No. Like and it just we can't have that again. They had all the levers of power and they squandered it and ruined it. And we have to to get this right this time. No, it's exactly right.

[00:28:03] And, you know, to Trump's credit, they seem to be moving quickly in a way that I never believed was possible. And so, you know, I think that that we need to light that same fire in the states and we need to come in and set a new level of expectation. This is what needs to happen. And we don't need to take 20 years to fix it. We need to fix it in the next four.

[00:28:28] And, you know, it's my goal to come in and build partnerships. I mean, there's so many amazing people who work in this space that I think that if we all come together with like minds, we can achieve great things. Now, let's talk for just a minute about the coalition building you hope to do. And you are you've you're right, you have a lot of experience with building coalitions, but you are one of the best coalition partners that our organizations ever worked with.

[00:28:59] The Tea Pretty Patriots Action. We always love partnering with you because you understand each group has a thing that they are good at. And let's just help them do whatever they're good at and everyone talk about it so that we can go accomplish the goal. Yeah, no, I mean, so there's there's already an infrastructure in place. You know, there's tremendous work being done by the state policy network groups.

[00:29:23] They have just incredible depth of knowledge in the states and they come at these issues, I think, very, very well. I think that what needs to happen and sort of we saw this at the federal level. So I'm sort of envisioning a bunch of many sort of exercises of getting business leaders in the states that want their state to be the best state in America. You know, like we need Georgia competing with Texas, competing with Florida for who can outdo each other.

[00:29:53] But I think that's going to require a new generation of business leaders. You know, again, we're seeing the Silicon Valley types, you know, sort of, you know, enter into the political space. I think they should also be involved at the state level. And so we're going to challenge some of them to do some of that. I think that there's a lot of opportunity for people who are very well known in state business to sort of say, hey, we need to do something different. Now's the time. Let's make it happen.

[00:30:19] And so I think that you partner existing groups with new entrants who sort of see the opportunities of the moment to, you know, I think that will really surprise people. You know, so I'm, you know, fairly close with Andy Roth over at the State Freedom Caucus Network. And I see the opposition to their legislative efforts at reform always come from the business community, which is insane.

[00:30:48] Because, you know, Andy just wants to deregulate and lower taxes and make these states better. But you have the Chambers of Commerce Network are dominated by companies like BlackRock, like JP Morgan, and these other megacorps that just want the status quo because they benefit from it. And, you know, we need to bust up the status quo.

[00:31:11] No matter how hard BlackRock fights us, it'll be better for them and, you know, better for the entire, you know, industry if we deregulate and if we increase competition in the long run. And so, you know, I think ultimately they're just sort of allergic to change and we need to bust through that. And so I think that getting the business community involved will be an important part of that coalition.

[00:31:37] But there's so many people in this space that if we can agree to work together and, you know, every – we all want the same thing that I think we can get it done. I think you've got an amazing opportunity ahead of you and you have the skills to get it done. And it's going to be a lot of fun. And I got to say, you know, I mean, you and I have been in a lot of fights together.

[00:32:00] When you have a moment – I mean, one of the funnest times I had working with you was in the Reopen It effort during COVID where we were going in, organizing activists to come in by the thousands to state capitals.

[00:32:14] And we were turning the tide against the lockdown regime and it – you know, and it's – that was possible because there was a moment and there was a clear desire from the American people for something different than what we had and what we were getting. And I think that – I think this is, you know, I mean, it's different but there's a lot of similarities in the uniqueness of the moment that I think people want to see.

[00:32:41] They understand that what we've got right now isn't working and that it can be done better. And so we now have, you know – I never thought I'd say that the federal government would be leading the way. I never thought I'd say that. Usually it's the states leading the way but, you know, we can't let the federal government shame the states. So I think we've got to catch up. Well, I'm very excited that you're going to have the opportunity to do this, Noah. Yeah. How can people learn more about your work and stay up to date? Absolutely.

[00:33:11] Come visit at stateleadership.org, stateleadership.org. And I'm on exit at Noah W. Wall. So I appreciate a follow. And, you know, it's going to be a fun journey. And so we'll keep in touch about it. Very good. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Noah. It's great to have you. I wish you the best of luck. It's going to be awesome. Thank you, Jenny Beth.

[00:33:33] The Jenny Beth Show is hosted by Jenny Beth Martin, produced by Kevin Mooneyham, and directed by Luke Livingston. The Jenny Beth Show is a production of Tea Party Patriots Action. For more information, visit teapartypatriots.org. If you liked this episode, let me know by hitting the like button or leaving a comment or a five-star review.

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